Done differently??

[scubajoh44]

I'm doing my DM internship. This weekend during an AOW class one particular student could not get under the water. We tried to get him to kick down. He didn't kick. He just used his hands. Finally, we got him down on a descent line. That dive was ok. The next dive...he tried to get down again....couldn't....so we swam to the descent line and he said his wet suit was too tight and he couldn't breath. We didn't do the dive. I took him (later) to make up that dive and when he finally did get down the descent line...while we were swimming around.... his weight belt fell off at 60 feet. He bolted to the top. What do you do with these students? Just not certify them? Oh, and he was wearing 28 lbs of lead (wasn't a big guy).

 

[Santa]

I took him (later) to make up that dive

Just you???

 

[skybird]

as a new diver, who is going for aow and just can't seem to ge the hang of using the compass, I dont' think I or anyone else should be certified unless and until we have proven that we can do the skills the class is based on. I would think for my insturctor to do less would be negligent and dishonest. I feel safe in the fact that my instructor will not certify me till I am ready, both for my OW and now for my AOW. If you have concerns, then this student needs to continue or retake the course. I am lucky to have a one on one who is able to give me as much or little time as needed for each skill.

just my opinions.


SkyBird

 

[carldarl]

First of all, I am NOT an instructor, just your average diver. But, here are a few of my questions and concerns. I apologize if I come across as being overly critical.

1. Where was his instructor during the class and please tell me you didn't take a student out by yourself as a DM intern the second time.

1A. I just saw again AOW class. How did he get here and not be able to figure out weightng to the point of HAVING to use a descent line to get down?

2. Did he get taught about having to possibly need a tightening of weight belt at depth to avoid losing it?

2A. How many dives does the student have?

3. If he finds it impossible to descend without using a descent line to pull himself down, how did you ever expect him to hold a safety stop after lightening his tank by using air?

4. Salt water or fresh?

5. 3mm, 7mm, farmer john, core warmer? Need more details.

Sounds like he is lacking in knowledge and needs assistance from his INSTRUCTOR. Solving some very basic criteria, primarily weighting, needs to be done before he is taken to depth again. IMHO. As a DM intern, I assume you are there to assist with the class. Please don't let yourself be placed in the position of being the instructor until you've been trained to do so.

Either way the student needs help with basics. The amount of lead needed at this stage of the learning process isn't based solely on body size. Also, he could be a relatively small guy but have little to no muscle mass and be all bouyant fat tissue.

Again, sorry if I sound negative toward you. Not intended. I'm just worried you are ending up in a position you aren't ready for and the student could pay the price.

 

[markfm]

If I know another certified diver who needs to work trim/weighting as a normal buddy, I'm happy to dive with just about anyone, within their certification. That's entirely separate from the context of a class, though, no claim about something being a "make up" for something that's supposed to be done by the Instructor.

Drilled into my head -- DMs don't do underwater skills. They can watch, be there with air if someone has trouble, act as a buddy if there's an odd number of students, but nada related to anything formally involving underwater skills development/checkout.

And yes, sometimes folks get to AOW with kind of sloppy skills, haven't had enough dives. Thankfully my Instructor did set me up with some good, experienced, people for my first post-OW dives. The experienced people included those with higher level certs, but the dives were in the context of normal diving, just people acting as good buddies, willing to give me pointers.
(Perhaps that what you meant by make up -- just doing a normal dive with someone, outside the structure of class.)

 

[AndyNZ]

We tried to get him to kick down. He didn't kick. He just used his hands. Finally, we got him down on a descent line.

Hmmm, not that great an idea - chances are that he would have problems on his safety stop? Most problems with not being able to descend are mainly due to lung volume - if you are in reasonably calm conditions then taking the time to get the diver to relax in the water prior to descent and to then concentrate on reducing their lung volume when breathing out to descend is the way to go.

The next dive...he tried to get down again....couldn't....so we swam to the descent line and he said his wet suit was too tight and he couldn't breath.

Sounds like a "panicky" diver looking for a reason to call the dive - again, spending time with them prior to getting in the water and checking how they feel and whether they are up for it, and also keeping them relaxed in the water prior to descent can make a huge difference to their enjoyment.

We didn't do the dive. I took him (later) to make up that dive and when he finally did get down the descent line...while we were swimming around.... his weight belt fell off at 60 feet. He bolted to the top. What do you do with these students? Just not certify them? Oh, and he was wearing 28 lbs of lead (wasn't a big guy).

Well, the poor guy could be in that mid range..... not so large as to be able to wrap the spare tyres each side of the weight belt to keep it in place, but still large enough to have no hips and need a fair amount of weight! I'd consider extolling the virtues of a weight harness rather than a weight belt.

The only way you can not certify someone is if they don't meet the performance requirements specified in the instructor manual. If it was, say, a naturalist dive the performance requirements can be met even with rubbish bouyancy control..... and be fair, if he lost 28lbs (12kg?) of weight he probably didn't have much choice but to bolt for the surface!

I genuinely believe that this guy was scared/nervous/aprehensive and would have benefited from a bit of support and encouragement, having the right equipment for him.

1. Where was his instructor during the class and please tell me you didn't take a student out by yourself as a DM intern the second time.

I don't think it's a breach of standards for a DMT to accompany a diver on a AOW dive (assuming PADI) unless it was the Deep or Wreck dive. PADI standards only require indirect supervision of most AOW dives, so the instructor has to only conduct the brief/de-brief and be ready to enter the water in event of a problem. Not necessarily what many instructors would do, but I do know of at least one that will sit on the boat for most of the dives and leave the student divers to their own devices on their dives......

1A. I just saw again AOW class. How did he get here and not be able to figure out weightng to the point of HAVING to use a descent line to get down?

Well, you can go straight into a PADI AOW as soon as you finish your OW - I certainly didn't have my weighting sorted at that time. It was only when I bought my own tanks (end of first year of diving, ~80 dives) that I really understood my weighting issues and could say that for any particular wet/drysuit, tank, accessories and environment what weight I should be wearing.....

 

[LindaBluedolphin]

When I was being certified I had the worst time getting down and staying down, and I was wearing 32-35 lbs of lead. Later I found out the problem was with the BC and I was not getting all the air out of it. Once I was able to get down I had the elevator syndrome.

Once I finally got a decent BC the problem went away. I am not saying that is the problem this guy was having but since it sounded so similar to my situation I thought I would share.

 

[dpthdiver]

Where was his instructor during the class and please tell me you didn't take a student out by yourself as a DM intern the second time.

Lots of varibles in this scenario....
Depending on the type of dive, (i.e. no deep training) the instructor only needs to indirectly supervise or oversee the dive. The DMT is obviously a certified diver. The student taking the AOW course is certified. If there's no standards violations...then there's no problem.

Disclosure: It does depend on the agency, type of dive, etc etc.

 

[84CJ7]

In the AOW cert its not the instructors job to hold the hand of the diver. Your supposed to be able to dive without supervision after the OW class, your supposed to be BETTER at it after the AOW class. You shouldn't have to teach basic skills to an aow diver. Giving suggestions in the peak performance bouyancy class is one thing, but if they still can't set up their gear or do basic diving, then its up to you whether or not you have the time to re-teach them what they should already know, in this case it sounds like you tried but you cant make a person a good diver, only teach them to dive.

I did my AOW right after my OW cert (in order of dives with large time gap in between) which really doesn't work for everyone, but I was competent (not good, but I could look after myself) enough to do that. I still have a hell of alot to learn but I can handle basic diving just fine.

This is actually debated to death alot, I swear it just came up and went on for like 20 pages as to when the AOW cert should be taken and the whole buying a cert and not earning it thing.

 

[dpthdiver]

Drilled into my head -- DMs don't do underwater skills. They can watch, be there with air if someone has trouble, act as a buddy if there's an odd number of students, but nada related to anything formally involving underwater skills development/checkout.

DMs can review skills provided the skills they are reviewing were previously evaluated by an active status instructor. Same rules applies to the pool, they can't introduce new skills without supervision, but they can review anything previously introduced.