MASS-Diver
Contributor
cowdog77:
ditto, sinkorswim really nailed it - great post.
Do you dive with or without your snorkel attached and why?
- Thread starter pilot fish
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
- Status
ditto, sinkorswim really nailed it - great post.
Folks,
I have been amazed and amused by this continuing controversy over what, on its face, seems like a simple question, to whit: To SNORK or NOT TO SNORK that IS the question! The heat generated by this lowly piece of plastic is incredible.
Now, I have no dog in this fight. I dive a re-breather, folks. I truly dont care HOW good your gas planning is, I have more breathing gas on board than any three of you combined. I am not being snotty, it is just the simple truth. I also do not WEAR a snorkel. I do CARRY a snorkel, because I have found it to be a useful tool at times. I therefore must admit that I do SNORK, but only in a certain sense.
Where I find that I am compelled to join the argument, however, is when some of our more enthusiastic writers propound basic truths, and build compelling arguments on the rock of those truths, except that they are, unfortunately, NOT TRUE.
Let us take, for example, one writer who recently stated: On the surface, the snorkel neither conserves gas in your cylinders, or (sic) does not help you breathe better. All it does is create additional dead gas space which detracts from your capacity to get full breaths of fresh air. The snorkel does not provide you with air - the air is already there, and all you have to do to get at it is breathe. Exhaustion is made much worse by the increased CO2 resulting from the additional dead gas space.
If you HAVE gas in your cylinders, and you are using your snorkel whilst preserving that gas for whatever reason you are, ipso facto, conserving that gas. It is the next statement that attracts my interest in any case.
Our writer here baldly states as incontrovertible fact that the snorkel creates dead gas space which interferes with breathing and increases exhaustion due to increased CO2. This would be scary if true, but IS IT?
We know that our lowly snorkel is named after the German device used to feed fresh air to the crews and the engines of diesel-engine submarines when the subs were running on the surface. It worked extremely well for them. Of course, it could be argued, that what do they know, they lost the war!
In our usage, we realize that the snorkel is just a pipe, and as we breathe out, pause, and breathe in, there is a certain amount of this used air which is then re-inhaled. So since upon examination we find a certain amount of truth here, must we then expect the dreaded exhaustion that the writer appears to find inevitable?
From our CPR classes we remember that this air is not all CO2. Approximately 16% is oxygen which our body did not use. If this were not so, then Rescue Breathing would not help victims in any emergency. So, in short, yes there will be some CO2 remaining, and the amount will depend upon the internal diameter and the length of the tube. Will it harm us, though, as this writer stoutly maintains? For answer to that, we have to look to our own observations.
I can personally think of Hanauma Bay in Hawaii where, on almost any given day, there are literally hundreds of snorkelers thrashing about in the waves. I would have to say that many of these folks are not in what we would call top physical condition.
If, as our writer vehemently states, the very use of this murderous little piece of plastic automatically and naturally leads to exhaustion, one would expect to see the floor of the bay littered with the carcasses of these hapless folk. The lifeguards, police, and medical examiners would be screaming for relief! We know, of course, that this is fortunately and simply NOT so.
Our writer then goes into a long discussion of the right way to breathe while in confused and choppy seas, without resorting to the use of the improper and murderous piece of plastic pipe, a.k.a. THE DREADED SNORK.
I will simply make two observations on this, if I may. The first is that military rescue swimmers use a snorkel in their work. They go in harms way, usually in heavy seas, since people rarely seem to be so kind as to require rescuing on nice days when the sea is dead calm. THEY are not dropping like flies from the exhaustion caused by the deadly snorkel.
Now it has been said that they are SWIMMERS, not SCUBA DIVERS, and that is quite true. This discussion has always been about using the snorkel while on the SURFACE of the water, not while under it. If I am confused about that concept, would someone please correct me?
The second observation has to do with the fact that I worked in Air-Sea Rescue for quite some time. As part of that activity, we spent time in training while experiencing what our potential victims go through. We called it Trolling for sharks with Ensigns! The service, however, just called it Water Survival and Rescue Training.
I can tell you from personal experience that it is possible to survive in rough and confused seas by doing as our writer suggests. I can also tell you from personal experience, that it is a DAMN SIGHT EASIER to breathe if you possess and use one of those lowly and much maligned pieces of plastic, which we call a SNORKEL, and you use it along with your mask.
Now, yes, I realize that proper use of the snorkel is difficult and requires major training. One must pause, blow the water OUT of the tube, THEN breathe in. It is important to remember NOT to breathe in while the tip of the snorkel is UNDER the water. Our writer may have not known this, which is why he may have such a vendetta against this simple but reliable device. In the interest of fairness, I will point out that many of us in our long SCUBA careers may have experienced the true excitement of jumping into the briny deep with the bit of our snorkel, not our regulator, in our mouths. This is a delight not soon to be forgotten!
In closing, I will again simply point out once again that the snorkel is JUST a piece of plastic or rubber piping. It is a TOOL, folks. It is not some demon-possessed instrument of murder. I will refer to the immortal words of Mr. Natural, who said: Get the right tool for the job, Kids!
Choose as you will. TO SNORK ..OR NOT TO SNORK that IS the question! Answer it in your own fashion, but lets at least keep the record straight!
Rob Davie :doctor:
I have been amazed and amused by this continuing controversy over what, on its face, seems like a simple question, to whit: To SNORK or NOT TO SNORK that IS the question! The heat generated by this lowly piece of plastic is incredible.
Now, I have no dog in this fight. I dive a re-breather, folks. I truly dont care HOW good your gas planning is, I have more breathing gas on board than any three of you combined. I am not being snotty, it is just the simple truth. I also do not WEAR a snorkel. I do CARRY a snorkel, because I have found it to be a useful tool at times. I therefore must admit that I do SNORK, but only in a certain sense.
Where I find that I am compelled to join the argument, however, is when some of our more enthusiastic writers propound basic truths, and build compelling arguments on the rock of those truths, except that they are, unfortunately, NOT TRUE.
Let us take, for example, one writer who recently stated: On the surface, the snorkel neither conserves gas in your cylinders, or (sic) does not help you breathe better. All it does is create additional dead gas space which detracts from your capacity to get full breaths of fresh air. The snorkel does not provide you with air - the air is already there, and all you have to do to get at it is breathe. Exhaustion is made much worse by the increased CO2 resulting from the additional dead gas space.
If you HAVE gas in your cylinders, and you are using your snorkel whilst preserving that gas for whatever reason you are, ipso facto, conserving that gas. It is the next statement that attracts my interest in any case.
Our writer here baldly states as incontrovertible fact that the snorkel creates dead gas space which interferes with breathing and increases exhaustion due to increased CO2. This would be scary if true, but IS IT?
We know that our lowly snorkel is named after the German device used to feed fresh air to the crews and the engines of diesel-engine submarines when the subs were running on the surface. It worked extremely well for them. Of course, it could be argued, that what do they know, they lost the war!
In our usage, we realize that the snorkel is just a pipe, and as we breathe out, pause, and breathe in, there is a certain amount of this used air which is then re-inhaled. So since upon examination we find a certain amount of truth here, must we then expect the dreaded exhaustion that the writer appears to find inevitable?
From our CPR classes we remember that this air is not all CO2. Approximately 16% is oxygen which our body did not use. If this were not so, then Rescue Breathing would not help victims in any emergency. So, in short, yes there will be some CO2 remaining, and the amount will depend upon the internal diameter and the length of the tube. Will it harm us, though, as this writer stoutly maintains? For answer to that, we have to look to our own observations.
I can personally think of Hanauma Bay in Hawaii where, on almost any given day, there are literally hundreds of snorkelers thrashing about in the waves. I would have to say that many of these folks are not in what we would call top physical condition.
If, as our writer vehemently states, the very use of this murderous little piece of plastic automatically and naturally leads to exhaustion, one would expect to see the floor of the bay littered with the carcasses of these hapless folk. The lifeguards, police, and medical examiners would be screaming for relief! We know, of course, that this is fortunately and simply NOT so.
Our writer then goes into a long discussion of the right way to breathe while in confused and choppy seas, without resorting to the use of the improper and murderous piece of plastic pipe, a.k.a. THE DREADED SNORK.
I will simply make two observations on this, if I may. The first is that military rescue swimmers use a snorkel in their work. They go in harms way, usually in heavy seas, since people rarely seem to be so kind as to require rescuing on nice days when the sea is dead calm. THEY are not dropping like flies from the exhaustion caused by the deadly snorkel.
Now it has been said that they are SWIMMERS, not SCUBA DIVERS, and that is quite true. This discussion has always been about using the snorkel while on the SURFACE of the water, not while under it. If I am confused about that concept, would someone please correct me?
The second observation has to do with the fact that I worked in Air-Sea Rescue for quite some time. As part of that activity, we spent time in training while experiencing what our potential victims go through. We called it Trolling for sharks with Ensigns! The service, however, just called it Water Survival and Rescue Training.
I can tell you from personal experience that it is possible to survive in rough and confused seas by doing as our writer suggests. I can also tell you from personal experience, that it is a DAMN SIGHT EASIER to breathe if you possess and use one of those lowly and much maligned pieces of plastic, which we call a SNORKEL, and you use it along with your mask.
Now, yes, I realize that proper use of the snorkel is difficult and requires major training. One must pause, blow the water OUT of the tube, THEN breathe in. It is important to remember NOT to breathe in while the tip of the snorkel is UNDER the water. Our writer may have not known this, which is why he may have such a vendetta against this simple but reliable device. In the interest of fairness, I will point out that many of us in our long SCUBA careers may have experienced the true excitement of jumping into the briny deep with the bit of our snorkel, not our regulator, in our mouths. This is a delight not soon to be forgotten!
In closing, I will again simply point out once again that the snorkel is JUST a piece of plastic or rubber piping. It is a TOOL, folks. It is not some demon-possessed instrument of murder. I will refer to the immortal words of Mr. Natural, who said: Get the right tool for the job, Kids!
Choose as you will. TO SNORK ..OR NOT TO SNORK that IS the question! Answer it in your own fashion, but lets at least keep the record straight!
Rob Davie :doctor:
BigboyDan
Guest
Most who don't carry a snorkel simply do not understand its use - and of course, are proud of it. It's the old "dumbing-down" syndrome, seen as a benefit. Sorta' like Homer Simpson doing his, "I don't need nun-uh-that book learnin' like those fancy-pants college boys do, I'm doing just fine." Naui has a specialty class for those who want to learn how to use a snorkel; 75 bucks, a couple of dives...
lamont
Contributor
BigboyDan:
That is called a "strawman argument". What you do is build up a strawman ("most who don't carry a snorkel simply do not understand its use") and then proceed to tear it down. The argument fails, though, on the failure of the basic initial assuptions.
I know how to use a snorkel. I have yet to encounter a situation where I even felt like I should have taken my fold-up snorkel in my pocket. If it isn't useful in any foreseeable situation on the dive, I don't carry it.
lamont
Contributor
BigJetDriver69:
[...lots of snippage, i didn't want to quote the entire thing...]
I think this issue should be qualified with a context. A lot of divers use snorkels when they're hanging off a line or surface swimming or in other circumstances where I don't think the dead air space makes a big difference. In those cases the argument comes down to preference really since you can always swim on your back or breathe off the reg.
The situation where breathing off a reg isn't going to be a possibility is the left-by-the-boat scenario where you have to swim to shore for more than 30 mins, possibly in heavy seas. In that circumstance, it is argued that snorkels are a good thing. In this situation, though, you're going to be engaging in sustained aerobic excersize, very probably at the limits of your physical capability.
For a counter-example to your examples, think about the average person going from sea level to, say, colorado and then trying to do distance running for 30 mins. I know that if I did that I'd get exhausted. OTOH, the trained swimmers that you were using as examples are probably in good enough shape to be able to handle the reduced O2 at altitude.
I think if it were me, and I was facing a >30 min swim to shore, that I wouldn't want to have the dead air space of the snorkel.
BigboyDan:
Now you are just trying to inflame those members of the board who dont use them.
As stated in a previous post I learned to snorkel before I learned to walk and having lived on the coast all my life was an avid snorkeler from then until I learned to Scuba.
I think I know what a snorkel isused for.
Most of the local shops around here run freediving, snorkeling and spearfishing courses (It is unethical to spearfish in this country on scuba - breath hold only) as well. They all teach the use of a snorkel and well they should as these are the applications that snorkels should be used for.
BigboyDan
Guest
"Strawman argument."
There are more than several posters on this thread who have offered personal examples of purposeful uses for the snorkel by divers - there ARE, therefore, purposeful uses for the snorkel by divers.
Tah-dah!
----------------------------
Online classes are available:
SPCH 2335: ARGUMENTATION AND DEBATE (3 credit hrs.) -- Principles of argumentation and skills of debate, including reasoning, evidence, refutation, and briefing.
http://www3.austincc.edu/catalog/fy2005/descspee.htm
There are more than several posters on this thread who have offered personal examples of purposeful uses for the snorkel by divers - there ARE, therefore, purposeful uses for the snorkel by divers.
Tah-dah!
----------------------------
Online classes are available:
SPCH 2335: ARGUMENTATION AND DEBATE (3 credit hrs.) -- Principles of argumentation and skills of debate, including reasoning, evidence, refutation, and briefing.
http://www3.austincc.edu/catalog/fy2005/descspee.htm
lamont:
Aw Lamont,
So you have "swallowed" the killer snorkel-dead airspace argument, I'm sorry to see! I guess we WILL be seeing Hanauma Bay littered with snorkeler corpses after all, the above being true!
Rob
P.S.--Just as an aside, your "Mr. Smith" avatar is nice, but rather---(I hate to say it.)----common. Your "Cuppa Joe", on the other hand was outstanding, and quite unique. Just one GI's opinion, for what it's worth.
R
I've taught skindiving for years... never heard about the "dead space" thing before. Never encountered it either... and my students are often out in the water for over an hour, swimming their guts out. Sounds like something nice in theory, not seen in practice.
MASS-Diver
Contributor
archman:
Here's another newflash for your - your reg is deadspace and it's signifigent too. CO2 is the enemy pure and simple, any experince snorkler knows that you exagerate your exhale slighly to deal with this issue. Almost all new divers have issues with Co2 (mostly from shallow, nervous breathing and overworking -often secondary), it exaserbates narcosis, it's one of the number issuses related to dive saftey.
2 weeks ago I saw a lecture by the doc who addmitted Chrissy Rouse to the chamber - he made of point of stressing how dangerous Co2 buildup is. Your reg is an issue, your snorkel is too. It's no theory, it's just difficlut to pick up - for example you even know what to look for? Again almost all new divers have Co2 issues - with or without the snorkel - the fact that you say you never noticed tells me you don't know what to look for or are not paying attention.
Use a snokel all you want - but they are at best useless and red flag to most people that know what they are doing.
And, BTW, if they are such lifesavers - do you always carry 2 on each dive?
- Status
Similar threads
