Do we need instructors?

[rstofer]

So maybe we have some climbers cum divers here on the board who could give us their take on the question as to if / why one of the activities requires formal instruction whereas the other doesn't? I do only a little climbing occasionally not at a very advanced level at all, so to me the two seem pretty comparable as I said above, but I'm really interested in other people's opinion there.

The only reason the c-card system exists is that, for the most part, LDSs control the air. They want to sell training and equipment and to do that they limit air to those who have had training. Boats and resorts control the air to limit their liability.

If you have your own compressor, and many do, there are no rules. You can do anything you want, any time you want. There is, AFAIK, no legal requirement to be a certified diver before diving from a public beach. Other than in Quebec and I won't be diving there anyway.

I went to an LDS one time and I asked about buying a BC for my grandson. As he wasn't yet old enough to be certified, they wouldn't sell it to me. That was pretty naive. I just ordered it online.

If I were so inclined, I could fill my grandson's tanks using my c-card. It's no longer necessary but it was always possible. Even if the shop was suspicious about why I was filling Al 50's, I doubt that they would ask.

Am I arrogant enough to believe I could have done a better job than his instructor? Absolutely! There is not a doubt in my mind. And he would have had to MASTER the dive tables. None of this eRDP crap.

The BSAC manual is a good reference. Actually, that old "The New Science of Skindiving" manual is still pretty relevant. There is a lot of good non-agency training material around.

But I don't believe the system is broken to the extent that eliminating the instructors is the solution. I'm not even sure there is a problem worth solving.

If 82% of the fatalities occur in divers over 40, just put an age limit on diving. If there is a problem, this will solve it.

Richard

 

[redacted]

Instructors are necessary. A mentoring system would have people cutting corners the whole time especially with family and friends.
"Dad, do really need to perform this skill again?"
"Naw, it's lunch time, let's call it a day".
Unfortunately, without badges and pass/fail authority over people, it would be an even bigger mess than the one we currently have. Most young people I have instructed didn't really want to learn, they just wanted the C card. The sad part is their university educated $100,000 a year income parents are often the same way too!

The most important part of being an Instructor is your ethos and how you instill that in your students and the divers you guide.

Do you really believe that???

I just don't see an experience diver father cutting corners with his wife or children. But I do see and have seen "professional" instructors push poorly prepared new divers through their training schedule. And by some miracle, those same divers make it through their certification dives - with the same instructor, of course.

For a start, how about if all certification dive were done by referral so there is an independent (of the trainer) confirmation that training was adequate.

 

[snowflake4727]

My concern would be that people don't know what they don't know, and before they mentor, they should be very experienced and an effective teacher. I would only want a really experienced mentor. Yes, it would be up to me to find one.
I also believe that the current system works fine. The vast majority of people that get certified either never dive after their vacation, or dive so infrequently that they might as well turn in their fins. What we need to do is create a way to get more people to stay in the sport after certification. This would take a circle of friends within the sport. Most people who do stuff, do so with friends, softball teams, bowling leagues, etc.

 

[redacted]

My concern would be that people don't know what they don't know, and before they mentor, they should be very experienced and an effective teacher. I would only want a really experienced mentor. Yes, it would be up to me to find one.
I also believe that the current system works fine. The vast majority of people that get certified either never dive after their vacation, or dive so infrequently that they might as well turn in their fins. What we need to do is create a way to get more people to stay in the sport after certification. This would take a circle of friends within the sport. Most people who do stuff, do so with friends, softball teams, bowling leagues, etc.

Why do we need to do that? Seems to me that we need more divers in our favorite diving spots like we need more drivers on the highway. Unless, of course, you happen to own a wrecker service.

 

[String]

Hi

In the UK we have a system sort of like the one you describe, it's called BSAC, the British Sub Aqua Club (or ScotSAC in Scotland).

And SAA. And a few others.

Instead of instructors per se, there are experienced divers who have undertaken a mentoring/instructing course and provide training within the club or a particular branch.

Completely incorrect. They are still instructors who have to (or are supposed to) teach from a standardised syllabus who have to be assessed via national theory and practical exams just like any other diving agency.

It is free, after joining your local club and BSAC/ScotSAC (~£100-150 a year) you are insured, you get a funky magazine every month and all your training is free.'

You join your club, you join BSAC (which might be £50 a year). You buy your training materials (maybe £30 or so), you have to usually buy your own gear or at best rent it (££££). The magazine is worthless. You have to pay your own diving entry onto boats, into quarries and so on. Sometimes you pay the instructors costs too.

Training is continuous, after you have your basic OW cert you will more than likely dive with your instructor on a regular basis within the club, who will take on a mentoring role. Assuming you continue to improve, these dives will start to count toward your higher certs.

Again, no its not. All courses have standard lessons as set out in the instructor manuals. Those must be followed. You cant chop and change and invent your own agency.


Club based instruction is no different to school based instruction - you still have instructors who have passed exams who have to teach the syllabus as described in the instructor manual. The instructors cant get paid for that but they still have to be professional and standardised in their teaching. BSACs main weakness is the lack of QA and oversight to stop the cowboy "i'll teach my own syllabus" issue within clubs.

The short side, club advantages:- No time pressure with training, most own boats so you can go diving cheaply. Should be easy to find a buddy.
Disadvantages:- Training can take AGES, 12 months to get basic ocean diver isnt unheard of depending on instructor availability etc and the lack of oversight means standards although present are frequently ignored so its not consistent training.

However club vs shop has no relevence to this thread. In most places in the world you dont need a certification to dive. You can quite happily teach yourself on the internet, go buy some gear, get a tank filled then go off a private boat or shore dive etc without any legal fallback. Whether that's wise or not is a totally different issue.

 

[leapfrog]

Do you really believe that???

Yes, I do, otherwise I wouldn't say so

I just don't see an experience diver father cutting corners with his wife or children.

You have far too much faith in the hypothetical father and you are assuming wives and children are docile and eager to learn and respect fatherly authority. It could be a mother teaching her kids, too.

But I do see and have seen "professional" instructors push poorly prepared new divers through their training schedule.

I don't doubt it but can you share chapter and verse with us please? Which instructors and where?

For a start, how about if all certification dive were done by referral so there is an independent (of the trainer) confirmation that training was adequate.

This would be another nail in the coffin of independent instructors, is open to abuse and reinforces the position of large LDS.

 

[rstofer]

What we need to do is create a way to get more people to stay in the sport after certification.

Why? More divers just crowd the beaches and fill up the parking lots. Using retention as a metric is something I just don't grasp.

More important, to me, is why would I care if someone else continues diving or not? It's their decision and completely irrelevant.

If the answer is "to grow the sport" then what do I get out of that growth? Equipment prices won't fall off a cliff. Air fills won't be free. Dive spots will be more crowded. What's in it for me?

Divers come, divers go. Some stay longer than others.

Richard

 

[Ana]

I think instructors are only needed when you depend on the "system" to perform your dives.

If you have an individual with access to the water and access to gas outside the "diving world" why would they need an instructor?

It will limit you to dive all over the world but maybe your backyard is good enough. I happen to know there are many options diving off SE Florida. You could start snorkeling reefs in super shallow water and move on, all the way to very technical very deep dives. You'll need your own boat, compressor and supply of oxygen and/or helium. You'll have to get the "how" on your own, good chances that will take much longer but it is perfectly possible.

Some people argue that only an instructor can safely train others. I believe using an instructor is one way to learn but not the only way.Some people are very good and disciplined at self-learning. Granted if you live in a square state or simply in a landlocked area you are limited to commercial options but for all the people with an ocean in their backyard there are more options.

Individuals arrive to diving from different worlds and one size does NOT fit all.

 

[Ana]

Why? More divers just crowd the beaches and fill up the parking lots. Using retention as a metric is something I just don't grasp.

More important, to me, is why would I care if someone else continues diving or not? It's their decision and completely irrelevant.

If the answer is "to grow the sport" then what do I get out of that growth? Equipment prices won't fall off a cliff. Air fills won't be free. Dive spots will be more crowded. What's in it for me?

Divers come, divers go. Some stay longer than others.

Richard

I used to think it was good to have a steady supply or newly certified divers to quit in their first year.
That way "hardly used" gear found its way to the market, but then I realized all that "almost new" gear was mostly bright colored junk.

 

[DennisS]

In very general terms you don't require certification to dive, as in, there is no official goverment law on the books that I know of.

However, most LDS's and dive boat operators require certification as a mutually agreed upon "industry" standard.

I think we need instructors, they insure that an individual is trained to a standard where they can dive safely with a buddy. If they are trained to this standard they should be able to conduct a dive unassisted with their buddy.

Why do we need divemasters?