Do we need instructors?

[Diver0001]

Hi

In the UK we have a system sort of like the one you describe, it's called BSAC, the British Sub Aqua Club (or ScotSAC in Scotland).

As far as I know, the BSAC teaches to CMAS standards. It's not quite what Bryan is talking about. He's talking about throwing out the books and letting everyone just figure it out for themselves....

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Bryan, one thing I do agree with you about (I thnk) is that there is far too little mentoring being done and that we could and should make more use of that.

I think the "formal" system of guided diving using divemasters is some kind of an attempt to do that but usually the execution is badly lacking and some DM's are also too inexperienced to be put in that position.

R..

 

[dbulmer]

gcbryan,

I'm not sure that teaching a loved one is better than having an instructor (paid or otherwise).
Proof? I can't prove it,of course, but I would add to those who have a partner - how many times does your partner ever really listen to what you are saying ?


As for club diving, well I prefer the SAA/BSAC way but again it's not perfect - I think its flexibility lies in reducing the time pressure that a student faces when learning the basics (and allowing the instructor flexiibility in teaching methods though as Diver0001 points out that can have its disadvantages) . I marvel at the pros who do manage to do a good job in a smaller amount of time.

Rupert spoke of the club system in general but I'd like to add one extra disadvantage to the club system.

We always assume that a student really wants to learn how to dive and is committed.

In a club system you almost always get students who want to learn but who do not necessarily have the committment to make it happen and this can be true of some club instructors as well.

If you're paying someone a fee upfront well you're probably going to be more committed for a while.

The reason I mention this is that mentoring is the best way to learn but it assumes a 2 way committment from student and trainer. If either party lacks the committment then training tends not to happen or is severely curtailed and then you're not much better off than if you'd done a paid course in a shorter amount of time.

 

[redacted]

I think you need to work the problem backwards. Start with what does a person need to have to scuba dive? If those needs include a license (c-card), then what are the requirements to obtain that license? I suspect that without some type of controls, the license, the accident rate would grow and probably not be acceptable.

I would like to see us get away from the system we have today with for profit businesses requiring training to obtain a c-card which is required by most dive operations. The training is fairly simple and well documented in a number of books and manuals for the most part. The requirement for a "professional instructor" should be up the the individual seeking the qualifications (liscence) they want or need.

 

[Diver0001]

I guess the real heart of the question is whether or not the phenomenon "modern scuba instructor" following "agency standards" results in worth while training.

There are many threads and many thousands of posts from people (one could say arm-chair quarterbacks) who don't seem to believe so.

I don't think burning the books is the solution, though. There are certainly problems with the system we have but throwing out the baby with the bathwater isn't the solution.

R..

 

[gcbryan]

I think that's naive.

I think you could compare that to learning how to drive a car. In some places the parents can still "instruct" their children when they have a learner's license.

Two things can be said about that. 1) most people don't drive well enough themselves to be "let loose" to instruct their children regarless of how much time they have and/or if they really want to do it right and (2) there is a very good reason why this is not allowed in big cities, namely that "professional" driving instructors are better at it.

I think you could draw a parallel there.

R..

This is an interesting thread and conversation in general especially given the different countries/cultures involved. Everyone drives in the US so (within reason) most peoples parents are good drivers and most people don't have professional drive instruction like they do in much of Europe.

We may have a high school driver's ed teacher (who is also a full time physical education teacher in many cases) give us a few lessons in the summer but he is not a professional driver in the sense you are used to.

Fewer people drive in Europe and those that do drive less often due to the better public transportation system. Here everyone has to drive and is therefore better at it (I can't believe I'm saying this).

 

[gcbryan]

I guess the real heart of the question is whether or not the phenomenon "modern scuba instructor" following "agency standards" results in worth while training.

There are many threads and many thousands of posts from people (one could say arm-chair quarterbacks) who don't seem to believe so.

I don't think burning the books is the solution, though. There are certainly problems with the system we have but throwing out the baby with the bathwater isn't the solution.

R..

I wasn't suggesting throwing the instructors out...just offering other possible options as exist in other sports.

 

[gcbryan]

This is a very interesting question you pose, and I'm not sure of the answer.
I guess the first "other" sport that comes to my mind which works the way you mention (optional classes, otherwise mentoring) would be climbing, which shows a lot of parallels to diving: You need to know some equipment and certain basic skills in order to keep yourself and your partner alive and well; it is a reasonable safe sport at "recreational" levels, but becomes progressively more risky when you leave this area; While someone can teach you certain skills, the feeling for it and the mastering of those skills only come through experience. I'm sure there are more.

So - as I said, I can't answer the question for myself, at the moment I can't see why diving should be different from climbing with regards to instruction, but I'm open for pointers as to what I may be missing.

Climbing was the other sport I was thinking about as well.

 

[gcbryan]

I guess part of what brought this thread about was the constant talk about the low standards of diving. On the one hand, not many people are dying so I guess it works. On the other hand the standards are so low that the main reason for taking the classes is only because you have to.

In climbing there were some classes that weren't offered (locally) when I might have needed them and by the time they were held there was no value added for me...a day late and a dollar short.

Some dive "specialties" are like that as well. Ultimately if the standards are low enough there is little reason to take the classes other than to get on a boat or to get air.

In climbing I've had people give me some pointers and instruction that was much more valuable that the low standards of some of the classes.

Now, there are much more complete classes if one is interested in spending 6 months learning every detail in class before venturing outside but most are more like dive specialties where almost nothing is really covered.

I haven't ever been taught anything about gas management in class or anything about planning for currents or had decompression principles mentioned at all. Buddy skills were not covered at all either.

If mentoring works and if formal instruction only covers the first few days of dive instruction I'm not sure I can see why it isn't possible to move mentoring back a few days and eliminating the formal instruction in some cases.

 

[stefo2]

Climbing was the other sport I was thinking about as well.

So maybe we have some climbers cum divers here on the board who could give us their take on the question as to if / why one of the activities requires formal instruction whereas the other doesn't? I do only a little climbing occasionally not at a very advanced level at all, so to me the two seem pretty comparable as I said above, but I'm really interested in other people's opinion there.