Do instructors not like to sell BP/W?

[cool_hardware52]

There are plenty of superior products that for one reason or another was not accepted by the mass market and remain in a niche market.

Very true. The power of the internet is helping to change that however.

Tobin

 

[leapfrog]

A poorly communicated thought is no excuse for sarcastic, intentional demeaning response.

Tobin

Tobin,

If you look carefully at the thread you will see that unlike your post, I posted my statement without quoting anybody. Therefore if anybody felt that they were being alluded to, only they know why.

I was not intending to be demeaning to anybody, so therefore the quote was not sarcasm but irony.

One definition of irony (from Wikipedia) is: "The use of irony introduces an element of humor which makes criticism more polite and less aggressive but understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker's intentions. This sophisticated understanding is lacking in people with brain damage, dementia and autism, and this perception has been located by MRI in the right parahippocampal gyrus."

I hope you don't now go on to say that I am being sarcastic here.

If I have offended you or anybody else, I apologize. I do (as other people here on SB) use witty remarks. I haven't had a problem with that until now.

While we are on the topic, if someone makes a facetious comment like:

Should there also be a special class for something like the Zeagle Ranger or the Seaquest Balance?

don't you think perhaps they are setting themselves up for a riposte?

My apologies stand.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I was not intending to be demeaning to anybody, so therefore the quote was not sarcasm but irony.

Sooo posting links like this Apples and Bananas Song lyrics from KIDiddles

was intended to convey your respect?

Tobin

 

[leapfrog]

There are plenty of superior products that for one reason or another was not accepted by the mass market and remain in a niche market.

True. Marketing issues often deal with consumers' perceptions rather than the intrinsic qualities of the product itself.

To put this into context, that is precisely the reason I am advocating a BP/W adventure dive inside the AOW syllabus and a BP/W specialty.

Whatever the reality may be (that a diver could learn and get certified with BP/W right from the start) the perception of the market at this time is that it is a different product from a jacket style BCD and that there are issues with regard to configuration, choice, purchase and safety of the use of the product both by the diver/owner and by other divers who may or may not be familiar with the equipment, especially in an emergency situation.

It's not a question of the reality or the intrinsic qualities of the product. It simply addresses the fact that people see it as being different.

By introducing an adventure dive or AOW syllabus subject, you will improve the chances of an LDS of having at least a couple of configurations for rental. By in effect getting people to do a "trial dive" with an instructor and get certified for doing it, you are also making sure that students get a positive input from the instructor about purchasing and using a BP/W.

 

[RonFrank]

There are plenty of great BC's out there. I like my Zeagle. My buddy has a Mares Jacket style BC, and a ton of dives on it. He's not complaining!

Scubaboard has convinced a LOT of divers I know to purchase BP/W's. Is this a bad decision? no. Is it a good decision.. Mostly. Would they have been just as happy with something else? Sure.

Since most of the folks I am talking about have less then 20 dives, IMO they have no clue what works best. The difference between my BP/W and Stiletto are very minor. In the water, almost non-existent.

New divers are not in a position to really judge equipment. They are just trying to get their stuff together, and into a comfort zone that takes some time to achieve.

Threads like this don't help!

 

[leapfrog]

Sooo posting links like this Apples and Bananas Song lyrics from KIDiddles

was intended to convey your respect?

Tobin

I was asked an Apples and Bananas question

Do you think diving a BP/W is really as different as wet vs dry?

So I gave an appropriate answer.

Do you think I was quoted or being spoken to with respect?

In fact, aren't you

DeepSeaSupply Innovative Backplates, Wings, Harnesses and accessories

creating a double standard here because you are a BP/W supplier? I'm not being offensive here, I'm asking you a question.

I have stated very clearly throughout the thread my opinion with pros and cons. Maybe you should read what I have actually written about the matter of discussion, instead of dwelling on my comments to Bonairetrip and my general statement that was not directed at anybody in particular, both of which I have already apologized for if in any way they were found offensive.

You don't have to like my opinion. You don't have to like me. You don't have to like the way I write.

You are free to argue your vested interest in a public forum. By using the forum to argue your case you are exposed to the point of view of other people, each of whom will put forward freely their own point of view.

The use of wit, irony, tongue in cheek humor and rhetoric are frequent both here on Scubaboard and other public forums whether on internet or elsewhere.

If you wish to continue this conversation, which is hijacking the thread, please PM me.

Thank you.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I was asked an Apples and Bananas question

So I gave an appropriate answer.

Really? I disagree and told you so in very simple terms.

If you felt the question was "apples and bananas" why wasn't a simple response sufficient?

Why did you feel it necessary and appropriate to post a link to a kiddies song?

Tobin

 

[DCBC]

It always seems to amaze me how different people's opinions are when it comes to a piece of equipment and their personal preferences. The OP asked a simple question: Why is it that the instructors he has spoken to have hesitated to sell him a BP/W? Perhaps we could discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each system and place this in the context of a new diver.

In my opinion, a BP/W has the advantage of being modular. This allows large volume wings to be swapped-out for deeper diving, as example. Many people prefer the lack of bulk around the sides and front of the jacket; others just like the look; it's cool to look "technical."

On the other hand, a jacket BC is generally less expensive and it floats an unconscious diver in a vertical position.

Obviously, we can compare other aspects and other BC types and variations. Personally, I see it largely as a matter of available coin. I would rather see a new diver spend a little extra on a regulator than on a BP/W. I also prefer the safety offered by the jacket BC for any diver. It's design however is not optimum for some types of diving, including wreck/cave penetration or possibly when a dry suit is used. In any regard, these may not affect a new diver as much as someone who's been around for several years. I'm not suggesting that all instructor's share my opinion, but it is what it is... I've had several different pieces of diving equipment over the years. I don't think I even tried to equip myself for years down the road, or I surely would have bought the wrong kit. I had no idea what the future held, or what new equipment would be out and accepted at that time...

 

[cloudswinger]

Very true. The power of the internet is helping to change that however.

Tobin

I think the internet has allowed niche markets to flourish and find customers, but I don't think the internet is really changing the conversion of the masses to those products. As much as you may think one product is superior, those features that you consider benefits may not be considered so by others. Seriously, who wants to be fiddling around changing configurations on an infinitely adjustable item when you're only going to be using it for one purpose. Sometimes it's simpler to have a single purpose item.

For example, my sister's main concern with her gear was that it is comfortable and that they all coordinate, and probably in the opposite order. She's young, fashion conscious and newly certified, and I was telling her about the snorkels I had, and that I mainly used the clear one(mainly for snorkeling, I might add) and could give her my teal one since she needed it for the class. But my fins are teal, and my mask is teal, so she wondered why I didn't keep/use the teal snorkel. On the other hand, the BP/W appeals to me because I am somewhat enamored of the adaptability and am a fiddler at heart. I might get one and have my sister use my jacket bc. Although I want a red setup. See what I'm saying? what you value as a feature isn't necessarily what I value. Red/colored would be the niche market. Haven't found it at the LDS, but I have found it online. And yet when it's all put together, it's not really all that cheaper, plus you have to add the hassle factor.

To answer the main question, why do instructors have to sell anything?

 

[cool_hardware52]

I think the internet has allowed niche markets to flourish and find customers, but I don't think the internet is really changing the conversion of the masses to those products.

BP&W sales are increasing, the number of brands offering BP&W's is increasing, all in shrinking Scuba Equipment Market.

As much as you may think one product is superior, those features that you consider benefits may not be considered so by others. Seriously, who wants to be fiddling around changing configurations on an infinitely adjustable item when you're only going to be using it for one purpose.

If you dive in ONE set of conditions why do you need to "fiddle" with either a jacket or BP&W?

For example, my sister's main concern with her gear was that it is comfortable and that they all coordinate, and probably in the opposite order. She's young, fashion conscious and newly certified, and I was telling her about the snorkels I had, and that I mainly used the clear one(mainly for snorkeling, I might add) and could give her my teal one since she needed it for the class. But my fins are teal, and my mask is teal, so she wondered why I didn't keep/use the teal snorkel.

Some people can't be helped.

To answer the main question, why do instructors have to sell anything?

Most dive shops give away training and fills at or below their cost. They try to make a profit on gear sales. Instructors are usually their most effective salesmen.

Tobin