Do instructors not like to sell BP/W?

[Teamcasa]

Please tell us why you find a 85 lbs redundant bladder wing to be the best possible choice for your diving.

Please don't. Start a new thread.

- this thread is already so far off topic it could not find it's way back with Google Earth and a dozen GPS's.

 

[Gombessa]

Please don't. Start a new thread.

- this thread is already so far off topic it could not finds it's way back with Google Earth and a dozen GPS's.

I don't think it's too off-topic at all. It's definitely gotten a bit heated, but we're honing in on at least one instructor's reasons for not teaching BP/W that is not purely a generic economics argument.

One question I have for DCBC - correct me if I'm wrong, but in this thread you've mentioned several times that you use a BP/w (with an 85lb wing for technical cave/wreck diving), you prefer to not teach students in BP/Ws as they require more specialized training, that BP/Ws push you head-down into the water, and that the OW standards you teach to are at least on par with those taught by UTD and GUE (you'll have to forgive my US-centrism as I have no idea what the standards requirements are for CMAS/ACUC and the other agencies you teach for, but I have recently seen how UTD/GUE stack up to the typical sport training certs we have here through SSI/PADI/NAUI/etc., so I imagine your standards must be quite high as compared to the industry norm).

From my own experience with recreational bp/w use, along with the many several dozen recreational bp/w users I personally know, we've had no problem with these rigs pushing us face-down into the water in warm or cold-water environments when properly selected, weighted and configured, and it seems to me if an agency like UTD is able to successfully teach bp/w from the get-go for a recreational certification class, then 1) someone teaching to similar or higher standards should be able to do so as well as part of the basics skills required for all certified divers (since I assume a similar level of instruction is given to gear selection and proper weighting and configuration of equipment in your classes)and 2) perhaps a recreational bp/w setup with a more moderately-proportioned wing from a balanced-rig perspective may resolve the disconnect that seems to exist between you and the many recreational bp/w users regarding this on-going contention that these rigs push you face-first into the water (when clearly, it does no such thing to us)? Am I doing something wrong in a recreational context that causes my wing NOT to push me face-down in the water when I go limp at the surface?

 

[DCBC]

My complete BP/w system cost me $425. That is strikingly different than the $600+ BCD's I see regularily stocked in most dive shops locally. For the shop, training in BCD may be cost effective because they are only paying dealer cost, not full MSRP. I'm sure that is true of most BP/w vendors as well, including Tobin (though I don't know for sure).

Based on the selling prices of the average BC and the average BP/W, I think it's fair to say that the BP/Ws are more expensive. As an example see Buoyancy Compensators | Scuba BCD: at JoeDiverAmerica.com where you can purchase BCs for less than $200. Yes you can pay more, but much more for a BP/W.

What overhead is increased with BP/w other than assembly? I take it you mean assembly? If not, then please clarify what means overhead in your context.

I used the term overhead to be the actual cost for a LDS to complete an OW course. Equipment, instructors, DMs, books, air, certifications, everything. Generally the higher this cost is, the less profit is made. The LDS can charge more, however they risk losing the competitive advantage that a lower priced course offers. Equipment costs are often reduced to allow the dive store to tie-up less money, so they can use the funds in other places that will provide a greater return on investment.

BP/w's are safe (at least the currently manufactured ones). What do you perceive unsafe about them? I gather from your posts that you don't, but you keep bringing up safety.

In the quotation you gave, I was not bringing-up safety of BP/Ws. My comment was directed to the fact that that the LDS wants to use safe equipment for training, at the least cost to them. In this way the higher cost of BP/Ws are seldom warranted. Should a dive store sell BP/Ws they may integrate them into the training program to intice students to purchase them. This would generally increase the cost of sales, as the BP/Ws are more expensive.

Will the OW purchase exactly the same BCD (make and type) that he/she was trained in? If not, then they are already purchasing something they are not trained in. Did the rental have integrated air source and the diver purchases octo instead or vise versa? If the diver was trained using tables, then will they purchase a computer? They were not trained that way. Was the diver trained with a weight belt but ends up using weight integrated instead?

Good points. There are differences between BCs and between BP/Ws. The purchase choice rests with the new diver. What I have experienced is that many new divers wish to buy more than just a BC or BP/W; they want all of their equipment. For the majority of the population, money is a consideration (although there are some people that price is no object). The new diver generally finds him/herself faced with trying to purchase everything on a budget. If they decide to go "high-end" on one item, they often cut back on others, or purchase their kit in steps.

Many will not end-up purchasing a computer at the on-set, but will work within the limits of the tables. If they do purchase a computer, the majority will get an average type of computer and not a X1 or VR3 right off the bat. They don't necessarily need all these functions. In a similar way they will often purchase a BC over a BP/W. Please keep in-mind that many divers tend to purchase from their LDS and if the LDS doesn't sell BP/Ws, they may be reluctant to purchase one as their first compensator.

UTD trains OW in BP/w, and spends considerable effort on bouyancy and trim from the very first day in class, and I'd say by their check-out dive (for OW recreational) they are looking better than any other OW student I've seen even by their 20th dive and even after PPB in most cases (unless they are mentored by some of the UTD/Tec/GUE locals). I'm not saying they don't have issues or more to work on. I'm saying they are enjoying their dives earlier.

Yes, UTDs mission is to train divers for exploration. This equates to a focus on more extreme types of diving. This is not the focus of most LDS, nor do I believe that this is the reason why most divers learn to dive.

Newly certified divers do not have to struggle with these things if they do not have unnecessary overweighting (which is the norm here for OW students), cumbersome BCD's with integrated weighting changing their balance, and improper distribution of weights that most shops/instructors wait until further instruction (AOW or PPB to correct). And proper instruction and the time spent to become comfortable with it during OW. Most PPB I've seen even then doesn't spend much time on this, just a getting nuetral and fin pivots.

Yes, I've noticed this as well.

... A good buddy tried to get horizontal with his BCD he had. After about 80 dives he finally had it pretty good but struggled sometimes. Tried my BP/w and went and purchased on the next day. For him, that was the answer to his comfort issues.

Yes, getting horizontal with some BCs can be a problem. It is this same "difficulty" that gets a diver's head out of the water on the surface. If I don't properly trim my BP/W, if I'm in a face down position inflated, someone will have to flip me face-up if I'm unconscious. The center of gravity on a BP/W is behind the diver, the same "comfort issues" affecting a diver when he's conscious often prove to be "uncomfortable" for him when he's unconscious. No doubt someone will want to argue this and I think I'm beating a dead horse here, so will not say anymore on the issue.

Thanks.

 

[DCBC]

...we've had no problem with these rigs pushing us face-down into the water in warm or cold-water environments when properly selected, weighted and configured... Am I doing something wrong in a recreational context that causes my wing NOT to push me face-down in the water when I go limp at the surface?

You're absolutely correct. The key is to have the BP/W properly selected, weighted and configured. This requires some trial and error on the part of the user. The COG changes during the dive, considering cylinder buoyancy and articles that may be carried at different times. Once properly trimmed, the BP/W should keep you in the position of your choosing. Many BCs on the other hand will place you in a vertical position which is less comfortable for a conscious diver. It will also try to do this on the surface, should you find yourself in an unconscious state.

... it seems to me if an agency like UTD is able to successfully teach bp/w from the get-go for a recreational certification class, then 1) someone teaching to similar or higher standards should be able to do so as well as part of the basics skills required for all certified divers (since I assume a similar level of instruction is given to gear selection and proper weighting and configuration of equipment in your classes

Absolutely, any instructor should be able to instruct new students to use a BP/W safely. I have also previously posted "that if this type of equipment used in their training, that the new divers should be encouraged to purchase similar equipment."

The situation is however, not what can be done, but a realization of what is being done in the majority of diver certification training programs. If I ran my classes with Superlites, perhaps more of the wealthy students would purchase them. But unless I was selling them I would not have anything to gain. Obviously, this wouldn't be cost effective either, if students can provide their own masks. The cost of my courses would be too high and I wouldn't be cost-competitive. The LDS wants to provide equipment at the lowest overhead possible on courses, as previously discussed, or they take a different "marketing strategy" to provide more expensive kit (either for durability or increased sales potential of the more expensive units).

 

[Bonairetrip]

Just trying to wrap this up.

Gear:
BP/W are not dangerous nor evil.
Conventional jacket BC's are not dangerous nor evil.
A BP/W system in not exclusively designed for technical divers but traditional jacket BC are exclusively designed for recreational diving.
Most technical diving requires a BP/W configuration.

People:
A new diver can be trained from the get-go with either system safely.
A diver that has been trained in one system can safely transition to another with a little effort and training.
Once a diver uses a BP/W, they will tend to recommend it to everyone.
The vast majority of recreational divers still use a jacket BC safely.
Some instructors consider BP/W to be exclusively for technical diving and not suited for new divers.
Some instructors will train the diver in what ever gear the client wants.

Money:
If there was more profit in the BP/W systems, more shops would sell them.
Tobin is passionate about his products (as he should be).
A shop/LDS will sell more of what they are passionate about.

Everyone has opinions and are entitled to share them; just be ready to defend them. Facts defend themselves.

I would add to the money section:
There are some jacket BCs that are cheaper than a BP/W.
There are some jacket BCs that are more expensive than a BP/W.
A BP/W can be modified in a way that jacket BCs cannot (at some cost but much less than a full rig) if your diving changes (i.e., going from a SS plate to Kydex or Aluminum plate; changing wing sizes; etc.)

 

[Bronson]

It is great to own your own equipment because you will know where it has been and how it is maintained. I have several BCDs and use them based on the dive and conditions. A light Scubapro jacket style is good to travel from USA to the Caribbean. An Aqualung Balanced for most general conditions as it is strong, back inflated and "weight balanced" for the back which replaced a Zeagle that died after 15 years. I use an OMS IQ BP/W for cold water and used it when i used to dive with Doubles. It does not get much use these days living in warm water climate.

I understand a guy wanting a BP/W as it has that extra strong feel. I do like the OMS products. For a lady I am surprised as they tend to go for the chic stylish models like the Aqualung i3Pearl (very nice looking on a lady) though a jacket style. My daughter (A 23 year old divemaster) tells me that she has to look good and pink is the chic color (her words).

all that i can say, i look around, check the feel and go diving and have fun.