Do instructors not like to sell BP/W?

[Teamcasa]

... Primarily for safety reasons because a BP/W does not float a diver in a heads up position (or face up position if counterweighted) on the surface as a jacket BCD does

This issue has been discussed and debated ad infinitum in other threads. Still, this misconception continues.

For me, floating on the surface is the least important factor in considering my gear selection.

 

[DCBC]

Just trying to wrap this up.... Everyone has opinions and are entitled to share them; just be ready to defend them. Facts defend themselves.

Yes they do. Thank you.

 

[DCBC]

For me, floating on the surface is the least important factor in considering my gear selection.

It sometimes is until you need to be rescued, or attempt to rescue another.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I use the right tool for the job; obviously you don't do much deep diving with extra equipment on Heliox ... Please don't talk to me about complexity; you are not honestly aware of, nor understand my personal equipment requirements.

If you are unprepared to discuss and defend your equipment choices

**WHY** even mention them on a public forum?

Tobin

 

[DCBC]

Ferrari's are routinely driven in Los Angeles. That does not mean the majority of motorists in Los Angeles drive Ferrari's.

I'm sure that Ferrari's are driven by new drivers too. However, I would not be lending mine unless the new driver had more experience...

 

[Gombessa]

I'm sure that Ferrari's are driven by new drivers too. However, I would not be lending mine unless the new driver had more experience...

But that's a bit of a dodge and a non sequitur to the point being made, isn't it?

 

[DCBC]

If you are unprepared to discuss and defend your equipment choices

**WHY** even mention them on a public forum?

1. This was not addressed to you, but leabre.
2. He had mentioned that I didn't use a BP/S; I was explaining that I did.
3. You commented that: "This represents needless complexity and an over sized wing. If this is your idea of the "best" and "safest" configuration......."
4. I sincerely hope that this isn't your typical attitude when dealing with customers; pass judgement on a diver's equipment before you even understand the conditions where it's used!?
5. I am not one of your customers.
6. I certainly don't have any need to "defend" my equipment choices, but would like to understand on what basis you feel qualified to give me equipment advise...

 

[leabre]

I do not utilize a BP/W for my OW courses. Divers are trained with jacket BCs for the simple matter of cost effectiveness. When operating a business, most LDS do not integrate equipment that increases overhead unnecessarily. Good safe equipment that's well maintained is all that's required. It's a matter of economics.

My complete BP/w system cost me $425. That is strikingly different than the $600+ BCD's I see regularily stocked in most dive shops locally. For the shop, training in BCD may be cost effective because they are only paying dealer cost, not full MSRP. I'm sure that is true of most BP/w vendors as well, including Tobin (though I don't know for sure).

What overhead is increased with BP/w other than assembly? I take it you mean assembly? If not, then please clarify what means overhead in your context. I also find BP/w to be streamlined and less cumbsome, but that is me.

BP/w's are safe (at least the currently manufactured ones). What do you perceive unsafe about them? I gather from your posts that you don't, but you keep bringing up safety.

After the training is complete, if a diver wishes to purchase his own equipment, why would you or anyone suggest that s/he buy something he has never used before? To venture out into the ocean on the first dive as a certified diver with different equipment... Would you not think that the diver is better prepared and in-fact safer with equipment he was familiar with?

Semantics. Will the OW purchase exactly the same BCD (make and type) that he/she was trained in? If not, then they are already purchasing something they are not trained in. Did the rental have integrated air source and the diver purchases octo instead or vise versa? If the diver was trained using tables, then will they purchase a computer? They were not trained that way. Was the diver trained with a weight belt but ends up using weight integrated instead?

The fact is, recommending and forcing are two different things. Most OW divers I know (except one) has thanked me for introducing them to the BP/w or without any of my intervention gravitated to BP/w anyway. At least the DSS ones are cheaper than nearly all the BCD's regularily stocked locally, and do not need to be purchased again as they gain/lose weight, or become more comfortable and begin to prefer a streamlined setup.

That said, he can of course get familiar with it, however many newly certified divers have buoyancy problems, which is corrected in-time with practice. I'm suggesting that it would be better to have the diver first have more experience before s/he starts changing his center of gravity in the diving environment. And yes, the COG can be changed by trimming the system; another fine point that may evade the inexperienced...

UTD trains OW in BP/w, and spends considerable effort on bouyancy and trim from the very first day in class, and I'd say by their check-out dive (for OW recreational) they are looking better than any other OW student I've seen even by their 20th dive and even after PPB in most cases (unless they are mentored by some of the UTD/Tec/GUE locals). I'm not saying they don't have issues or more to work on. I'm saying they are enjoying their dives earlier.

Newly certified divers do not have to struggle with these things if they do not have unnecessary overweighting (which is the norm here for OW students), cumbersome BCD's with integrated weighting changing their balance, and improper distribution of weights that most shops/instructors wait until further instruction (AOW or PPB to correct). And proper instruction and the time spent to become comfortable with it during OW. Most PPB I've seen even then doesn't spend much time on this, just a getting nuetral and fin pivots.

Do you think it's reasonable or necessary for a new diver to spend twice the money to purchase a BP/W? Is it that he needs the added buoyancy so he has an ability to load extra tanks for O2 decompression? Deep diving, cave or wreck penetration? No, I think not...

Again, I purchased a BCD at LDS for my wife for $549, and one for me for $689, based on common stock, + $59 or so for an Air2 Source that we both promptly discarded after a few dives switching to octo. We both stopped using integrated weights and started using weight belts, as well. I purchased my DSS BP/w for $425 at the time. To me, BCD's are more expensive. But then, I must usually pay full price-fixed MSRP, aslo. I'm not a dealer or instructor, so I get no discounts. So my perspective is tainted in that respect.

There will be exceptions. Most shops stock only the expensive stuff, but most chains stock the less expensive stuff. Regardless, I do not find $425 significantly more expensive, considering I lost 30 lbs and my BCD not only didn't fit my anymore (necessitating the need for a new purchase),

BP/w can be used for non-pen dives and non-deco. They are just about as recreational as any BCD, just more streamlined and depending on the manufacturer, even more cost effective. If you are talking about Dive-Rite BP/w's, then I'll agree, they are grossly over-priced. But there are other vendors with better prices.

There's a difference between a diver wanting a BP/W and going out and purchasing one and an Instructor recommending that something be purchased. I have a respect for peoples choices, but I'm a supporter of incremental progress. Equipment should reflect both the choice and capability of the intended user.

Around here, based on observations of people I dive with or observe over my 3 years diving, there seems to be a relatively common cycle among the more avid divers (which itself is a smaller percentage of the overall dive population):

Get certified, by BCD. Decide they didn't like it for whatever reason, try another BCD. Eventually want to try other things, or practice the techniques they see the tec people do (horizontal trim, non-silting, etc.) and upgrade again to a BP/w. If they want to take a Fundies/Essentials/Intro to Tec class, they must switch to BP/w anyway.

Seems to me that they are incrementally spending more money, even if just getting BCD and switching to BP/w. Twice as much spent right there.

A good buddy tried to get horizontal with his BCD he had. After about 80 dives he finally had it pretty good but struggled sometimes. Tried my BP/w and went and purchased on the next day. For him, that was the answer to his comfort issues.

I'm just saying the following:

1) Some BP/w's (quality ones at that) are better priced than most commonly stocked BCD's in local shops

2) If the student has a balanced rig from the first day, proper weighting (read: the 12 lbs the need to be nuetral, and not the 26# instructors use to keep them on the floor during OW), and the proper time and instructoin from the instructor during OW, then bouyancy will not be as much of an issue as we commonly observe. I speak from what I've observed from 100's of PADI OW students produced from local shops, vs. the few I've seen produced from UTD. There is such a clear difference that is mind blowing.

3) There is no data to suggest that currently manufactured BP/w's are any less safe than BCD's. Therefore, there's no reason to avoid BP/w other than preference. New divers have no preference by default, so why not let them try it and see which they feel better in. Most of the time, locally, they'll prefer a BP/w if they try it. There are exceptions. They may or may not purchased based on economics and they already have something, but those who truly do not like their BCD, chances are, will end up in a BP/w and like it (there are exceptions).

4) BP/w's are just as recreational as any BCD. They are just different.

5) It is quite obvious that the diving climate in SoCal is very different than where you're from. I have not observed the climate (or your classes) so when I generalize, I speak of the local climate to which I'm indiginous.

Personally, I do not care whether a dive buddy uses BP/w or BCD. But I have noticed most of them will prefer a BP/w and feel more comfortable in them than a BCD. I do not speak for everyone.

 

[Teamcasa]

It sometimes is until you need to be rescued, or attempt to rescue another.

Why? If I'm doing the rescue and my wing is having trouble supporting me and the victim, weights will be dropped. Conversely, if I'm the victim, and you can't support me, drop my weights. Either way, It's still not my first consideration.

 

[cool_hardware52]

1. This was not addressed to you, but leabre.
2. He had mentioned that I didn't use a BP/S; I was explaining that I did.
3. You commented that: "This represents needless complexity and an over sized wing. If this is your idea of the "best" and "safest" configuration......."
4. I sincerely hope that this isn't your typical attitude when dealing with customers; pass judgement on a diver's equipment before you even understand the conditions where it's used!?
5. I am not one of your customers.
6. I certainly don't have any need to "defend" my equipment choices, but would like to understand on what basis you feel qualified to give me equipment advise...

Well let me try again. I will again note that you choose to detail for the readership here what you use for cave and wreck diving

As I've mentioned, I own a BP/W ( SS backplate, double bladder (85pds lift) with full redundancy and a Hogarthian harness). I prefer to use this when diving in the conditions for which the system was designed: wreck / cave penetration and deep diving when using double cylinders.

Please tell us why you find a 85 lbs redundant bladder wing to be the best possible choice for your diving.

Tobin