Do instructors not like to sell BP/W?

[Gombessa]

(BTW, for all the research they do, they don't know they want it until the salesman explains the advantages of the product and they make a purchase decision and place an order.)

Not always. I've talked to many people who have made a decision based on the discussions they've had with people unaffiliated with any manufacturer and shop, and they order online or on the phone without any CS interaction at all. I don't know if there's a way for Tobin to tell, but I'm willing to bet he gets a lot more "blind" orders than ones in which he coaches customers through the sales process? In fact, Tobin is the only manufacturer I know of who really recommends calling and talking with customers about their needs first - someone ordering from ST, LP, EE, CA and the host of other manufacturers probably never get anything even close to a "sales pitch," not the least because the process takes place entirely through an electronic shopping cart.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Not always. I've talked to many people who have made a decision based on the discussions they've had with people unaffiliated with any manufacturer and shop, and they order online or on the phone without any CS interaction at all. I don't know if there's a way for Tobin to tell, but I'm willing to bet he gets a lot more "blind" orders than ones in which he coaches customers through the sales process? In fact, Tobin is the only manufacturer I know of who really recommends calling and talking with customers about their needs first - someone ordering from ST, LP, EE, CA and the host of other manufacturers probably never get anything even close to a "sales pitch," not the least because the process takes place entirely through an electronic shopping cart.

If I could I would prefer to speak with every customer. That way I know they are getting the combination that will best serve their needs.

While we do have some very well qualified dealers ome of the "2nd hand orders" i.e. those where my goods are sold through a retailer can be kinda scary.

Small Kydex back plates and 40 lbs wings, that sort of thing. I have and expect to continue to refuse some orders, when I see wacky combo's being ordered.

It's not unusual for me to spend a fair bit of time talking people OUT of some purchases, gear they don't need, or they don't yet know enough about their future diving to make the right choice now.

Tobin

 

[leabre]

And yes, this is only my opinion. It's based upon 37 years of teaching experience and my assessment of a few thousand new divers that I've had direct contact with and certified. It is solely the opinion of one diving professional. I've mentioned on more than one occasion that others may disagree.

I've dived with many new divers that had (ignorant or negative) opinions about BP/w because of their shop or instructor, and after a few dives with me or other buds that use them, have gone and purchased them. I have one that will be pretty soon after a year (and about 40 dives together) of joking about how he'll never switch.

My best friend, a new diver, had only 2 dives on a BCD in Florida and came to visit me back in June, I bought him an aluminum BP with wing and even had him assemble the hogarthian harness himself and he loved that thing so much more than the BCD he used previously.

This is purely anecdotal, as well. But I'd venture to say, based on those I encounter in my area, either have become comfortable with their BCD and have no desire to change to a BP/w (or other BCD for that matter), or have issues with their BCD that cause them to consider BP/w. I will openly admit one diver I know who tried BP/w and went back to BCD (not for safety concerns, though).

My reasons for switching to BP/w are because I lost so much weight that my XL BCD no longer fit me, and I did not want to continually purchase new BCD's for my shrinking waist so now I can adjust to webbing and I'm good to go. I inadvertantly had the side-effect of much better bouyancy and much comfort with it. I also took 5 lbs of my waist. For me, it was (even to this day) the single best gear purchase I ever made.

I cannot drown in one of those things if I wanted to. I've never felt a tendency to roll face down (I use one of Tobin's rigs) and I always surface swim on my back and have yet to experience a resistence between me wanting to roll ever to my face vs. stay my back, even if I'm just relaxing and not kicking at all.

When talking to the local dive shops, they are either ignorant or they always make reference to stocking "what sells" but will make a provision that they can special order a BP/w (a brand of their choosing mostly, not my choosing), but they have little expertise to help make the right decision, rig it, or provide advice.

Most new divers would likely not gravitate for a BP/w because it is not what their instructor, buddies, or shop uses/carries. Not because they prefer a BCD over BP/w. They will stick with what they know and what they see. If the shop, their instructor, and many divers local used the, they would probably use those and prefer them over BCD.

The debate is endless. The fact is, BP/w's are safe as evidenced by the number of people that use them (or their variants) without incident that can could be attributed to BP/w. If there were more incidents, it would certainly make the news and cause endless debate on these boards no doubt.

But let me ask this: if you do not use them, or sell them, or reccommend them, and have an stronger opinion about BCD, then what would your students do but listen to you and make that opinion their own? Are you not making a silent recommendation just by the fact you don't recommend them, carry them, or use them?

I dove with one person in a group last week who had something to say about my rig, after explaining my reasons for getting, he said that his instructor and shop DM's didn't like them and felt certain BCD's were better and so they must be right because they know better. I really had no response other than "to each his own".

But the standard disclaimer applies: this is my opinion/observation. It may vary from yours and others.

 

[leabre]

If you are capable of selling BP&W to people that have never seen one, know nobody who uses one and who have been trained at an anti-BP LDS (I never knew they existed but I'll take your word for it), you should be Secretary of Commerce or running General Motors.

I am one of those people. I had, at the time, a dive buddy in a class that used a Trans-Pac. I researched and based on what people on the boards had to say, then went for price. I chose a DSS (and a more minimalist BP/w than the Trans-Pac)sight unseen. Had never seen anything like it before except in pictures. Was the single best gear purchase I've ever made (to this day).

 

[cool_hardware52]

So, you agree that they are not popular but not for safety reasons. Maybe recreational divers don't find them useful, pratical or comfortable. As stated throughout the thread, my main issue with BP/Ws, as far as recommending them to inexperienced divers is safety.

Perhaps I failed to make my self clear, or perhaps reading comprehension is not your strength. I was of course referring to the claim that the AT-Pac failed due to safety reasons.

That's quite a statement you're making considering the company you're in here on SB.

Divers who have actually used a BP&W seldom consider them anything too special, complicated or "tech" only. There are of course exceptions, not everybody gets it.

You are a supplier of BP/Ws so you have a financial incentive to sell them because that's how you earn your living. Aren't you just disappointed that we haven't all started stockng and selling your equipment?

No. It's not my goal to have DSS stocked in every dive shop. While we have some very good dealers I'm a lot happier when I have first hand contact with the end user.

Just look at the shrinking number of dive shops in the U.S. Anybody that's betting their future success on having lots of diving retailers stock their goods needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

When I worked at a PADI/TDI facility, I sold plenty of BP/Ws from known manufacturers. However never to people at recreational entry levels OW thru Rescue.

Retailers love to sell the same diver 3-4 different BC's. The "starter BC" right out of BOW. The "Upgrade" after a couple more classes. Then the "tech" BC if the diver is still diving. Then this diver goes to the gear lecture for his first real tech class, often taught by an independent instructor only to learn he needs a BP&W.

Dive shops don't like BP&W's because:

The diver that buys a BP&W early in their career seldom needs 3-4 more BC's

The margins might be lower than most jackets.

Their main line (read regulator) supplier doesn't offer one, making reaching the annual recorder $$ more difficult

They require more knowledge on the part of the sales staff.

They can require more effort to set up, i.e. more work for the instructors

Many dive shops don't like tech divers and by extension what they perceive as "tech gear" precisely because many tech divers have grown disillusioned by the sales tactics they have encountered at the LDS.

When you "hate" your potential customers it's hard to succeed in selling much.

I'm getting confused here. Are they popular or are they not?

Let me help. Slow down. Go and read again what I wrote. BP&W's are gaining market share, (that means they are popular with people who dive) but they uncommonly stocked in the LDS. (That means dive shops don't often stock or sell them)

Since you don't like the Superlight.

Again, reading comprehension. I never said anything negative about KM, nothing.

I did say comparing a Superlite to a BP&W was ridiculous. Once again, the comparison was worthy of ridicule, not the goods.

example how about alternate air inflator hoses? I don't recommend them to the same public that I don't recommend BP/Ws to. I think they are great for experienced divers and I know a lot of people that use them. Most of the divers I know who use them do have either at least some minimal technical dive training or are instructor level recreational divers who use them on their personal kit, i.e. not the rig they use for teaching or guiding dives.

Now I'm confused. Are you saying you don't sell AirII's to newbies, but you do sell them to tech trained divers?

That's 180 from what happens around here. The AirII and all it's brethren are a classic "dealer option" sold at the LDS to the unsuspecting newbie. (Shazam! with an AIRII you need one less hose!!!)

If the diver actually remains in diving long enough to get tech training they almost universally regret buying the AirII and dump it.

Define "widely used". especially with regard to recreational and new divers.

I've sold 1000's of BP&W's, most with single tank wings. This distribution, ~70-80% single tank is pretty consistent based on the wing fabricators and retailers I've spoken with.

If these aren't being used for recreational diving then they aren't being used at all.

It's a question of he right equipment for the right people. Nobody has said they are unsafe. What some of us are saying is that they are less safe than a jacket type BCD.

Where does less safe end and unsafe start? I'll ask again, where are the stats to support your claim?

If backplates are either unsafe, or less safe one would expect at least some real evidence.

There are of course no stats to show that jacket BC and BP&W are equally safe, or equally unsafe, one cannot "prove" a negative.

I have no doubt that if such evidence existed my liability insurance underwriter would have concerns about it, these folks are the definition of risk adverse.

Tobin

 

[leapfrog]

If I could I would prefer to speak with every customer. That way I know they are getting the combination that will best serve their needs

While we do have some very well qualified dealers. Some of the "2nd hand orders" i.e. those where my goods are sold through a retailer can be kinda scary.

Small Kydex back plates and 40 lbs wings, that sort of thing. I have and expect to continue to refuse some orders, when I see wacky combo's being ordered.

It's not unusual for me to spend a fair bit of time talking people OUT of some purchases, gear they don't need, or they don't yet know enough about their future diving to make the right choice now.

Tobin

Tobin, this was exactly what I was hoping to read the whole way through the thread. I know you wouldn't have the impressive customer and endorsement list you have without this kind of serious salesmanship. We're off topic now but do you have a dealer in Spain?

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin, this was exactly what I was hoping to read the whole way through the thread. I know you wouldn't have the impressive customer and endorsement list you have without this kind of serious salesmanship. We're off topic now but do you have a dealer in Spain?

I'm not in the office today but I'll get you that information tomorrow.

Tobin

 

[DCBC]

... But let me ask this: if you do not use them, or sell them, or reccommend them, and have an stronger opinion about BCD, then what would your students do but listen to you and make that opinion their own? Are you not making a silent recommendation just by the fact you don't recommend them, carry them, or use them?

Hi Leabre,

As I've mentioned, I own a BP/W (Hollis system: SS backplate, double bladder (85pds lift) with full redundancy and a Hogarthian harness). I prefer to use this when diving in the conditions for which the system was designed: wreck / cave penetration and deep diving when using double cylinders.

I do not utilize a BP/W for my OW courses. Divers are trained with jacket BCs for the simple matter of cost effectiveness. When operating a business, most LDS do not integrate equipment that increases overhead unnecessarily. Good safe equipment that's well maintained is all that's required. It's a matter of economics.

After the training is complete, if a diver wishes to purchase his own equipment, why would you or anyone suggest that s/he buy something he has never used before? To venture out into the ocean on the first dive as a certified diver with different equipment... Would you not think that the diver is better prepared and in-fact safer with equipment he was familiar with?

That said, he can of course get familiar with it, however many newly certified divers have buoyancy problems, which is corrected in-time with practice. I'm suggesting that it would be better to have the diver first have more experience before s/he starts changing his center of gravity in the diving environment. And yes, the COG can be changed by trimming the system; another fine point that may evade the inexperienced...

Do you think it's reasonable or necessary for a new diver to spend twice the money to purchase a BP/W? Is it that he needs the added buoyancy so he has an ability to load extra tanks for O2 decompression? Deep diving, cave or wreck penetration? No, I think not...

There's a difference between a diver wanting a BP/W and going out and purchasing one and an Instructor recommending that something be purchased. I have a respect for peoples choices, but I'm a supporter of incremental progress. Equipment should reflect both the choice and capability of the intended user.

 

[DCBC]

Your comparison is ridiculous, that's not the same as stating the product is ridiculous. Do you really need me to explain this?

Yes apparently you do. Were you aware that Superlite sales among recreational/scientific divers has increased? The Superlite is a simple system; I utilize it to give Advanced divers an introduction to a variety of equipment often used in commercial diving. A pair of my more wealthy divers have purchased their own Superlites which include a communication system. If your pocket book is large enough and you get the training to use it safely, why not?

To sell or promote that any diver purchase or use any piece of diving equipment for which he is either unready or untrained to use is negligent.

I've sold many thousands of BP&W. Most, 80%+, are sold with single wings. Many, many are sold to new divers who have never even seen a BP&W in person, know nobody that uses one, and their LDS is anti-BP.

You no doubt have more instructional experience than I'll ever have, but I'm quite certain I've had more first hand contact with new BP&W users.

Again you make my point. You sell to people without any knowledge of their diving experience, their ability to control their buoyancy and you may even be unaware if they are even certified. I'm not throwing stones here, so don't get me wrong.

You're in business to turn a profit. You have to trust your Dealers to do the right thing, but my point is that your contact is based upon the customers desire to purchase. S/He has comes to you to buy equipment. I don't doubt that you discourage some, but you are not in the position to know their abilities. An Instructor who has trained and evaluated that diver is.

My statement is a general one and not specific "A new diver is better able (safer) to use equipment that is similar to the equipment that s/he has trained on. The diver needs to first gain a degree of experience until a transition may be made that will maximize safety."

 

[cool_hardware52]

Yes apparently you do. Were you aware that Superlite sales among recreational/scientific divers has increased? The Superlite is a simple system. I utilize it to give Advanced divers an introduction to a variety of equipment often used in commercial diving. A pair of my more wealthy divers have purchased their own Superlites which include a communication system. If your pocket book is large enough and you get the training to use it safely, why not?

If the OP would like, I have some specialized equipment that he may wish to purchase, such as a Superlight 17C. It's ready for Heliox with a Dirty Harry (UltraJewel 601) for Helium reclamation and I've used it for saturation diving at depths in excess of 1300 feet, so chances are it will be the only mask you will ever need and it does offer other advantages over many other masks that are currently in-use. The LDS probably doesn't stock this piece of equipment either and may wonder why a new diver needs one... Perhaps they are trying to address the majority of the recreational market and not the minority... (Sorry I couldn't help myself; I love to stir the pot)

First of all my comment was in tongue-in-cheek; but what do you have against a Superlite?

You make a "tongue-in-cheek" comment intended to "stir the pot" an activity you "love to" engage in.

And then you object when I call it ridiculous. Again to compare the training, necessary support apparatus and support personal necessary to use a Saturation ready KM helmet to the use of a type of BC is ridiculous.

I'd suggest that if you wish to be genuinely helpful to the readership, trying staying on topic, avoiding hyperbole, and don't offer personal opinion as fact.

To sell or promote that any diver purchase or use any piece of diving equipment for which he is either unready or untrained to use is negligent.

Again you make my point. You sell to people without any knowledge of their diving experience, ability to control their buoyancy and may even be unaware if they are even certified. I'm not throwing stones here, so don't get me wrong.

What exactly are you slinging if not stones?

Now you suggest I'm negligent for selling a type of BC that the vast majority of users report helps to improve their buoyancy.

If I'm negligent how would you describe dive shops, with first hand contact with their customers / students continue to sell SpareAir, pony bottles, and combo Octo-inflators?

My statement is a general one and not specific "A new diver is better able (safer) to use equipment that is similar to the equipment that s/he has trained on. The diver needs to first gain a degree of experience until a transition may be made that will maximize safety."

Apparently you had first hand knowledge of a single incident involving a AT-Pac many years ago and this has colored your thinking from that point forward. As noted AT-Pac are no longer produced or sold.

What have we learned in thread?

A BP&W is a very simple type of modular BC

No current BC is an approved Personal Flotation Device, many have commented here that no BC guarantees an upright position at the surface.

There is no data or other hard evidence to suggest that BP&W are any less safe than any other currently available BC.

New divers are routinely trained successfully in BP&W's

New divers routinely succeed in mastering a BP&W, pretty good evidence that BP&W's are in fact a simple device, not a treacherous death trap.

You may prefer to paint a different picture, but the FACTS remain unchanged.

Tobin