Do instructors not like to sell BP/W?

[DCBC]

Do you anything other than your opinion to support this contention? ...While I do not accept your premise that safety issues caused the 70's BP&W to be "commercially unsuccessful" I will point out that there are many reasons for any product to fail to gain popularity and safety is usually near the bottom of the list.

Hi Tobin,

Perhaps you should investigate the history of the At-Pac (made by Watergill) and followed by the Dacor Nautilus and later CUDA Systems. The At-Pac was the first of the wings. I tested this buoyancy device while stationed at DCIEM in 1973; this design had a tendency to roll a diver over face-down in the water.

I subsequently gave evidence in court (as an expert witness) regarding the death of a diver in Tobermory, Ontario. It was held by the court that this unit caused the diver to roll face-down in the water and it was directly attributed to his death. The lawsuit was successful. These and other "events" led to the company selling it's assets to Scubapro. Everything old is new again....

Funny how those that consider a BP&W "specialty equipment" usually either have no clue about them, or have a financial incentive not to sell them.

Given that BP&W's aren't widely stocked, and few LDS know anything about them, how do you explain their rapidly growing popularity? Anecdotal evidence reveals many more on boats and at popular dive sites, and the number of brands offering BP&W's seems to increase daily.

Perhaps you have some hard and fast statistics to support your statement?

To equate a BP&W to a Kirby Morgan Superlight is ridiculous.

The BP&W is a very simple modular BC, widely used by recreational divers, new divers and tech divers. A BP&W is cost competitive with recreational BC's

A KM Superlight OTOH is commercial dive gear. Use requires specialized training, other specialized equipment, and tenders.

If you prefer not to sell BP&W's don't, but your continued contention that they are unsafe, in the absence of any facts, is getting old.

First of all my comment was in tongue-in-cheek; but what do you have against a Superlite? Your comment about tenders shows that you don't know much about them, as they are often used with SCUBA.

There are many types of full-face masks that have been used over the years by recreational and scientific divers worldwide (outside of the commercial field). They are just another tool which has the advantage of offering verbal communication between the diver and others. They also have their use in in-water recompression of DCS victims in isolated locations where a chamber is not otherwise available (as discussed on another thread).

I also don't recall that cost-effectiveness was a requirement for the selection of equipment. There are several recreational divers on this forum that have invested much more money in rebreather equipment. Like a rebreather, divers do require additional training, but each are within the realm of recreational diving and provide several advantages.

I no longer sell diving equipment, so I don't see the point you're trying to make. "DeepSeaSupply Innovative Backplates, Wings, Harnesses and accessories" Your vested interest in divers purchasing this equipment is clear.

I was simply trying to give the OP some possible reasons for the reception he has received. As this is supposition only, I've encouraged the OP to ask each individual Instuctor to explain his/her reasoning.

Your continued comments that I am suggesting that it is my "continued contention that they (BP/W) are unsafe," is what is getting old.

I admit that it is my considered opinion (of which I'm aware that you disagree) that a BP/W is not the safest piece of equipment for a new diver. As this is an opinion, I do not have any need to justify same to anyone.

 

[leapfrog]

While I do not accept your premise that safety issues caused the 70's BP&W to be "commercially unsuccessful" I will point out that there are many reasons for any product to fail to gain popularity and safety is usually near the bottom of the list.

So, you agree that they are not popular but not for safety reasons. Maybe recreational divers don't find them useful, pratical or comfortable. As stated throughout the thread, my main issue with BP/Ws, as far as recommending them to inexperienced divers is safety.

Funny how those that consider a BP&W "specialty equipment" usually either have no clue about them

That's quite a statement you're making considering the company you're in here on SB. Can you substantiate that?

or have a financial incentive not to sell them.

You are a supplier of BP/Ws so you have a financial incentive to sell them because that's how you earn your living. Aren't you just disappointed that we haven't all started stockng and selling your equipment? Do you think you're being objective? Right now, I am an independent, so I don't sell gear to anybody. When I worked at a PADI/TDI facility, I sold plenty of BP/Ws from known manufacturers. However never to people at recreational entry levels OW thru Rescue.

Given that BP&W's aren't widely stocked, and few LDS know anything about them, how do you explain their rapidly growing popularity?

I'm getting confused here. Are they popular or are they not? At the beginning of your post you say they are not...

Anecdotal evidence...

As somebody else quotes here on SB, the plural of anecdote isn't data.

... reveals many more on boats and at popular dive sites, and the number of brands offering BP&W's seems to increase daily.

So what's the problem? I don't care what people use. If a BP/W is what works for them, that's fine with me. At the end of the day, the best decision a diver can make about his or her equipment is what they are comfortable with, providing they are proficient with its use and that their buddies know how to handle it too.

To equate a BP&W to a Kirby Morgan Superlight is ridiculous.

Since you don't like the Superlight example how about alternate air inflator hoses? I don't recommend them to the same public that I don't recommend BP/Ws to. I think they are great for experienced divers and I know a lot of people that use them. Most of the divers I know who use them do have either at least some minimal technical dive training or are instructor level recreational divers who use them on their personal kit, i.e. not the rig they use for teaching or guiding dives.

The BP&W is a very simple modular BC, widely used by recreational divers, new divers and tech divers.

Define "widely used". especially with regard to recreational and new divers. Are new divers recreational divers? BP&W is par for the course with tech divers, wreck penetration divers and cave divers.

A BP&W is cost competitive with recreational BC's

I haven't read one single post on the thread that says they aren't.

If you prefer not to sell BP&W's don't, but your continued contention that they are unsafe, in the absence of any facts, is getting old.

It's a question of he right equipment for the right people. Nobody has said they are unsafe. What some of us are saying is that they are less safe than a jacket type BCD.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Hi Tobin,

Perhaps you should investigate the history of the At-Pac (made by Watergill) and followed by the Dacor Nautilus and later CUDA Systems. The At-Pac was the first of the wings. I tested this buoyancy device while stationed at DCIEM in 1973; this design had a tendency to roll a diver over face-down in the water.

Are AT-Pac's currently produced or offered for sale?

Which would you suppose have been produced in greater numbers AT-Pacs or the "modern" BP&W for sale today?

Given that you can purchase BP&W's today from

DSS
Oxycheq
DiveRite
DeepOutDoors
OMS
Frog
Agir Brokk
Zeagle
Dir Systems
Hollis
Hog
Apeks
Halcyon
etc.

Plate only
FredT
Hammerhead
Freedom Plate

I'd have to guess that the Modern BP&W has been produced and sold in numbers that vastly exceed anything the AT-Pak ever did.

Show me the bodies. Where are all the accident victims?

First of all my comment was in tongue-in-cheek; but what do you have against a Superlite?

I have nothing against KM or the Superlite. When did I say anything negative about either?

I admit that it is my considered opinion (of which I'm aware that you disagree) that a BP/W is not the safest piece of equipment for a new diver.

So I can assume you have no data that BP&W's are unsafe, only your opinion.

Everybody is of course entitled to an opinion, but presenting your opinion as fact is no service to any of the members.

Tobin

 

[DCBC]

Show me the bodies. Where are all the accident victims?

I only have personal knowledge of one. How many does it take?

I have nothing against KM or the Superlite. When did I say anything negative about either?

You stated this equipment was only in the commercial realm and any such comparison to recreational diving was "ridiculous."

"I admit that it is my considered opinion (of which I'm aware that you disagree) that a BP/W is not the safest piece of equipment for a new diver."

So I can assume you have no data that BP&W's are unsafe, only your opinion.

First, I never said BP/Ws were unsafe; I don't own or use unsafe equipment. What I said was that "a BP/W is not the safest piece of equipment for a new diver."

And yes, this is only my opinion. It's based upon 37 years of teaching experience and my assessment of a few thousand new divers that I've had direct contact with and certified. It is solely the opinion of one diving professional. I've mentioned on more than one occasion that others may disagree.

May I ask what your opinion is based upon? As you have vested interest in the sale of this equipment, this is a mitigating factor. How many new divers have you had direct instructional experience with?

 

[cool_hardware52]

I only have personal knowledge of one. How many does it take?

Is this other than the AT-Pac accident you related earlier? If so please do provide the details.

You stated this equipment was only in the commercial realm and any such comparison to recreational diving was "ridiculous."

Your comparison is ridiculous, that's not the same as stating the product is ridiculous. Do you really need me to explain this?

First, I never said BP/Ws were unsafe; I don't own or use unsafe equipment. What I said was that "a BP/W is not the safest piece of equipment for a new diver."

And yes, this is only my opinion.

Thanks again

May I ask what your opinion is based upon? As you have vested interest in the sale of this equipment, this is a mitigating factor. How many new divers have you had direct instructional experience with?

I've sold many thousands of BP&W. Most, 80%+, are sold with single wings. Many, many are sold to new divers who have never even seen a BP&W in person, know nobody that uses one, and their LDS is anti-BP.

Somehow these new divers manage to configure, and use these BP&W's without incident.

You no doubt have more instructional experience than I'll ever have, but I'm quite certain I've had more first hand contact with new BP&W users.

How many new DSS BP&W owners have returned their goods because they aren't comfortable at the surface?

None.

Tobin

 

[leapfrog]

I've sold many thousands of BP&W. Most, 80%+, are sold with single wings.

Many, many are sold to new divers who have never even seen a BP&W in person, know nobody that uses one, and their LDS is anti-BP.
Somehow these new divers manage to configure, and use these BP&W's without incident

If you are capable of selling BP&W to people that have never seen one, know nobody who uses one and who have been trained at an anti-BP LDS (I never knew they existed but I'll take your word for it), you should be Secretary of Commerce or running General Motors.

 

[cool_hardware52]

If you are capable of selling BP&W to people that have never seen one, know nobody who uses one and who have been trained at an anti-BP LDS (I never knew they existed but I'll take your word for it), you should be Secretary of Commerce or running General Motors.

I do it at least once, virtually every week.

Tobin

 

[Gombessa]

If you are capable of selling BP&W to people that have never seen one, know nobody who uses one and who have been trained at an anti-BP LDS (I never knew they existed but I'll take your word for it), you should be Secretary of Commerce or running General Motors.

It's not that uncommon, from what I've seen. A lot of people find out about bp/ws, do as much research as they can online (including talking to people here on SB), and in the end have to make a purchasing decision "blind" because their LDS doesn't carry stock. As persuasive and helpful as Tobin can be on the phone, it's less a result of salesmanship and more of just supplying what the customer already wants.

 

[leapfrog]

I do it at least once, virtually every week.

Impressive. Let's hope BHO lurks on Scubaboard!

 

[leapfrog]

As persuasive and helpful as Tobin can be on the phone, it's less a result of salesmanship and more of just supplying what the customer already wants.

Why are you demeaning his salesmanship? We need this man at the helm of the economy!

(BTW, for all the research they do, they don't know they want it until the salesman explains the advantages of the product and they make a purchase decision and place an order.)