Do instructors not like to sell BP/W?

[DCBC]

It's worthwhile to put this in context. As I have already stated:
1. I'm not against the use of BP/Ws; I own one and use it regularly.
2. A BP/W by design has a center of gravity (COG) behind the diver.
3. By design, many Jacket BCs do not.
4. Trim may alter the COG in either device, but the design characteristics of the Jacket and BP/W are what they are.
5. The context of this question is for a newly certified Diver and not an experienced one.
6. In my experience, one of a new diver's major problems is that of buoyancy control.
7.The fine points of buoyancy control often elude new divers until they gain more experience.
8. In context of the question, I have commented on why an instructor may have discouraged the OP from purchasing a BP/W. I have also commented that other instructors may not agree.

What is it that you are taking exception to? You are entitled to your opinion; as am I.

 

[Bonairetrip]

You appear to be based in the Evergreen State. Drysuit may be second nature to you but to a recreational diver who has done their first thirty or forty dives in a 3mm or a shorty it can be pretty nerveracking. Maybe you are a Drysuit Specialty Instructor, so you can fill me in on your own experiences?

I agree that for most divers the switch from wet to dry is significant and that some sort of class is a good idea. That was half of my point. The other half of the point: going from a "regular" BC to a BP/W is just not as big a transition (nor was going from my original horse collar to the jacket style) as wet to dry. And plenty of people do the wet to dry transition without an adventure dive as part of AOW or speciality. In other words, I was disagreeing with the notion that a class "could and should" be the (only?) way to introduce certified divers to the BP/W.

Since you asked: I am not an instructor (drysuit or otherwise). I was certified 30+ years ago in Puget Sound. My first wetsuit was a 1/4 inch Harvey's Farmer John (nylon in and sharkskin out).

I went dry (tri-lam) about 15 years ago (at that time I was using a 7mm farmer john).

For me, going wet to dry was very easy. Yes, even on my very first dive. I was a bit light on that dive so I simply didn't add as much air to the suit. All squared away by dive two. Not that you asked, but I personally prefer to use the suit for bouyancy control except at the surface. (Full disclosure: I used about 30 minutes of free pool time offered to me by a friend to learn avoiding and recovering from a feet first ascent. That plus about a ten minute conversation before that.)

 

[Bonairetrip]

A class? You mean ONE? Have you done any rebreather diving and if so could you enlighten us on your extense knowledge of this subject?

Sorry to be imprecise: I was referring to a course of instruction. To be clear, a course of instruction may consist of one or more courses. In turn, each course may consist of one or more class sessions (or labs, dives, whatever). In the instant case, one would need to know the specific rebreather, previous classes the diver has passed and what specific types of diving they would like to participate in before one could ascertain the appropriate course of instruction.

Hope that helps!

 

[leabre]

A new diver may already be task loaded just trying to attain proper trim, manage there buoyancy and navigate.
Next add in diving under different conditions like learning in warm water and going on a cold water trip. This very often involves a thicker wetsuit so again they need to figure out trim and manage buoyancy.
All this before logging enough dives with these variables to give them a insight into the changes needed to their configuration for these conditions.
So add in a BP&W with it's multitude of configuration options and it is just too much for most new divers to deal with.
For this reason a mainstream jacket style BC often is a better choice until a diver has better understanding of what effects differing configurations will have. At that point the diver is better equipped to deal with some of the extra variables and truely optimize any equipment package to their needs.
Some will find there way to a BP&W while other will find BCD with different features and/or characteristics that suit them.

I realize you speak in general (99.99999999% of the shops out there) but, UTD (Unified Team Diving), for their OW classes, have the students in proper trim and bouyancy from day one. The students are configured with a BP/w, long hose, and *properly* weighted from their very first time in the water. After completing OW, they perform about as good as any Intro to Tech, or GUE-Fundies student would. It's what they learn, it's all they know.

They have the bouyancy and trim and non-silting kick techniques down because in the instructors spend the time to teach it properly, and rather than over weighting with 26#, they have a balanced rig from day 1. And yes, this is recreational diving class (Open Water). The agency does provide the building block to later progress into tec without having to learn (or unlearn or re-learn) the basic skills. But this is OW we're talking about.

How long is this Open Water program? According to UTD, 5-6 days.

At least one agency is out there spending the time to nail bouyancy and trim from the get go. So why aren't the others?

Anyway, to the OP: I tend to agree with most others here that it is because the instructor is not familiar/comfortable with BP/w. The shop doesn't stock it, and it is not easily rentable in most places.

 

[DCBC]

I realize you speak in general (99.99999999% of the shops out there) but, UTD (Unified Team Diving), for their OW classes, have the students in proper trim and bouyancy from day one. The students are configured with a BP/w, long hose, and *properly* weighted from their very first time in the water. After completing OW, they perform about as good as any Intro to Tech, or GUE-Fundies student would. It's what they learn, it's all they know.

They have the bouyancy and trim and non-silting kick techniques down because in the instructors spend the time to teach it properly, and rather than over weighting with 26#, they have a balanced rig from day 1. And yes, this is recreational diving class (Open Water). The agency does provide the building block to later progress into tec without having to learn (or unlearn or re-learn) the basic skills. But this is OW we're talking about.

How long is this Open Water program? According to UTD, 5-6 days.

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that in 5 days total buoyancy control is achievable during OW training. Certainly in warm water with clear visibility this could be done.

Teaching someone all that's required, having them perfect buoyancy in confined-water, put them into a wet suit with extra weight and completing the open-water dives, just doesn't translate to "nailing" buoyancy control. One thing that I've learned by instructing diving for the past 37 years, is that each student is an individual and has different skill sets and abilities. Your statement is conclusive and all diving students just don't fit into that mold.

Diving conditions vary greatly with currents, wave action, visibility, etc. It takes experience to develop these skill sets. Once this is achieved, it can be transient as another piece of equipment may be carried or worn that affects the fine balance.

At least one agency is out there spending the time to nail buoyancy and trim from the get go. So why aren't the others?

I understand what you mean, but I disagree. Agencies don't teach, the Instructors do. Perhaps you should have said: Why are more Instuctors not spending the time to nail buoyancy and trim from the get go.

I for one spend quite a bit of time on this skill. Not being "all Instructors," I can't say that others do not.

Anyway, to the OP: I tend to agree with most others here that it is because the instructor is not familiar/comfortable with BP/w. The shop doesn't stock it, and it is not easily rentable in most places.

Again I'm one Instructor that owns a BP/W and is familiar/comfortable with it. I'm not however "all Instructors" and can not say what the knowledge base is of any Instructor other than myself.

As a Course Director and Evaluator, I am only familiar with what an Instructor Candidate is able to translate of his/her knowledge. From what I've seen most candidates have a basic knowledge of BP/Ws, although they may not choose to use one themselves. Like many pieces of diving equipment, this is a personal choice.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

I realize you speak in general (99.99999999% of the shops out there) but, UTD (Unified Team Diving), for their OW classes, have the students in proper trim and bouyancy from day one. .

How many students have you certified this year? Where has this been done? What is the VIZ? What is the age range of the students? How much is your class?

Just a few questions I had

 

[cool_hardware52]

How many students have you certified this year? Where has this been done? What is the VIZ? What is the age range of the students? How much is your class?

Just a few questions I had

Mike,

Has leabre claimed to be an instructor, or to have certified anybody?

He was relating what is in fact possible.

Some of UTD success is certainly due to the length of their courses, and some is certainly due to the fact that class participants "self select", i.e. have higher expectations, and better than average access to mentors.

Your argument is a bit like a public school complaining that private schools have higher test scores because they get better students, yes in part, the education is usually better too.

Tobin

 

[Gombessa]

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that in 5 days total buoyancy control is achievable during OW training.

A couple of weeks ago, I had the pleasure to meet a UTD Rec 1 (Open Water) student with her instructor on her final checkout dive, and was invited to take a brief look at her in-water video (straight from the camera). I was incredibly impressed by the basic skills demonstrated on this experience dive - buoyancy, trim, propulsion. She could have said that she had 5, 10, 20, 50 post-certification dives, and it all could have been true.

I always thought that if you taught someone from the get-go to never touch, let alone kneel on the bottom, and really focus on basic buoyancy/trim, they'd pick it up much faster because they don't have anything to unlearn, but this was really the first time I saw that demonstrated in practice, and the result was pretty darn amazing.

How many students have you certified this year? Where has this been done? What is the VIZ? What is the age range of the students? How much is your class?

Hey Mike,

I know this wasn't directed at me, but the UTD OW class I saw was in Monterey, CA. 50 degree water, 10ft viz that day, slight-to-mild surge, and sea nettles swarming in all depths and directions. Not conditions I'd want for my own OW class

 

[DCBC]

A couple of weeks ago, I had the pleasure to meet a UTD Rec 1 (Open Water) student with her instructor on her final checkout dive, and was invited to take a brief look at her in-water video (straight from the camera). I was incredibly impressed by the basic skills demonstrated on this experience dive - buoyancy, trim, propulsion. She could have said that she had 5, 10, 20, 50 post-certification dives, and it all could have been true.

I always thought that if you taught someone from the get-go to never touch, let alone kneel on the bottom, and really focus on basic buoyancy/trim, they'd pick it up much faster because they don't have anything to unlearn, but this was really the first time I saw that demonstrated in practice, and the result was pretty darn amazing.

Hi Gombessa,

I'm not saying that diver's can't have good buoyancy control after their open-water program. I certainly require my students to demonstrate this and I run my pool sessions much like what you've described.

There are students however that have great difficulty on their OW with buoyancy. Perhaps it has just been my experience, but I see a lack of buoyancy control in most divers, especially when a heavy wet or dry suit is required. Buoyancy control is something that many certified divers still haven't "nailed."

I don't see this as a result of poor instruction received, rather it is a skill that requires application and experience. It's something that most people learn by doing and it often takes a lot of effort and many attempts to do it properly.

What percentage of divers can ascend at a constant rate from 75 feet to a 15 foot safety stop in 120 seconds (give or take 10 seconds), remain there during the safety stop (without an aid) and surface properly with their buddy? How about repeating the same exercise with 10 feet of visibility? If you've got your buoyancy nailed, no problem.

 

[leabre]

What percentage of divers can ascend at a constant rate from 75 feet to a 15 foot safety stop in 120 seconds (give or take 10 seconds), remain there during the safety stop (without an aid) and surface properly with their buddy? How about repeating the same exercise with 10 feet of visibility? If you've got your buoyancy nailed, no problem.

From 75, UTD divers would be ascending to 40' at 30 ft./sec. Hold for a minute, and then ascend at the rate of 10 ft./min thereafter. Granted, not a constant rate if they choose not to, it depends on how the team plans and agrees to it.

When I said they have their buoyancy nailed, I wasn't speaking about absolute perfection. I was speaking more along the lines of demonstrate great competency, comfort, and control of their bouyancy and skills. They will come out of their OW check-out dive looking as if they had already logged 50 dives or so so (compared to other OW students I observe constantly in the area). I've seen a couple UTD OW divers.

There is no PPB in UTD. The student will not get their C-Card if they do not demonstrate the skills properly. Part of that demonstration includes not touching the bottom or silting-out, while minimally task loaded (mask clearing, retrieving, reg drills, safety drills (air sharing on a long hose), etc.) and holding position on ascents and decents. No holding the line on the way up or hanging onto the spool when shooting a bag. The spool is a reference only and the UTD diver would not be holding it even in surge, only using as a reference for depth. Those are the skills every OW student would have to demonstrate.

I have nearly 200 dives and transitioned in and don't have as much control because I'm too busy fighting what I've been doing for the past 3 years. UTD OW students do not have to relearn or unlearn anything.

I was merely trying to communicate that it is possible to teach trim, propulsion, and bouyancy from the get-go and with great success. However, imparting this ability is a goal of the organization/instructor, not an after thought.

Perhaps some of these students would be willing to share their video online. Every class session is recorded on video to review the students performance.

Of course any diver will have to practice more to become more proficient. But they must first demonstrate the ability to perform the skills before receiving the C-Card. Perfection comes with practice. There is nothing different here. But there is not substandard perforamnce acceptance or cutting corners. Either the student performs correctly (but not perfectly) or not.

The ultimate goal of a UTD diver is not to become an instructor, but to become an expedition diver.

Thanks,
Shawn