Do instructors not like to sell BP/W?

[ZenDiver.3D]

Just throwing in this. I own the shop. I stock only Zeagle Rangers, techs, and 911's. I then also carry BP/W selections. That's it. No jackets at all. My student gear is Zeagle. There are 3 other shops that are full of jackets. They can sell al of them. But then, we are the only technical facility here along with our recreational side. I have an instructor who teaches classes in his BP/W. It is good for them to see different configurations. And then I tell them to dive first and buy gear later, when they have some experience. Usually they come to me, but when they are ready.

 

[RAWalker]

I see it a bit differently.
New students taking open water in cold water stuffed into a thick 7mm wetsuit, they wear a mask that to us seems like a ton of peripheral view but to them seems like looking through a pipe underwater. Add the bulk of a modern jacket or even rear inflate cross over with all the padding, pockets, big weight pouches, useless d-rings everywhere. I think modern BC's are contraptions and add a level of anxiety to an already foreign sensation. The poor people already feel like sausages stuffed into those suits now on top of it some instructor /shop stuffs them further into an overstuffed contraption and probably no less overweighted so the student can drop down feet first as soon as they dump the air. This means the instructors purposely overweighted them so they would'nt have to deal with them wiggling around on the surface trying to get down (they don't teach skin diving anymore). That means that they have to put a good amount of air into their contraptions to keep them floating which means the jacket they are most likely using is squeezing in on them making them feel really uncomfortable like a sausage in a barbecue ready to explode, and the anxiety level gets real high when they feel like they cant breath.
I used to watch this almost every weekend at the breakwater. God those poor people!

I just think most shops, or at least the one around here, operate in a bubble.
I don't really think they care what they sell as long as they make money and the rent and employees are covered at the end of the month. I also think that they have an attitude of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". They don't care what works better, as long as students come in the door, get certified, buy gear and leave. Oh yeah, and also book a dive trip a few times a year through the shop.
I think a lot of them are burned out from doing retail, and owning the shop is just a way to eek out a mediocre living. They don't see why they should work that much harder to promote something, get it in the store, go through the percieved learning curve (?) etc. for something that will make them about the same money with the same amount of new people walking through the front door.

That's what I think.

While I agree with the BP&W as what works better. I don't feel it is what works better while learning because of the configuration variables. Jacket style BCD limit the variables to loading the weight pockets and placing the tank for good trim. Once this is done and with a proper buoyancy check the student is free to work on swimming and breath control and get accustomed to the underwater environment.
Experience with differing environments and levels of exposure protection will build on their knowledge base. With this progression their comfort level will also grow and they will be better equipped for additional variables such as what type of weight system to use, whether to use dumpable weight, weighted STA, what plate material, pockets, stowing accessories and the like with a BP&W.

From a minimalist point of view yes a jacket BC is a overly feature endowed contraption and yet many skilled and experienced divers prefer them for singles diving. Not all are created equal and some models perform better than others.

From a configuration decisions point the BP&W is much more complex.

As for overweighting students the blame lays firmly with the instructor. I agree this is far too common an experience for a new diver but it could just as easily be the case with a BP&W.

The there side of the shop story is a Tech oriented shop that puts a new diver in a BP&W regardless of whether it is best suited to the divers needs simply because they believe a BP&W is the "only way to go".

 

[RAWalker]

It is good for them to see different configurations. And then I tell them to dive first and buy gear later, when they have some experience. Usually they come to me, but when they are ready.

Agreed, Let them see what's available and dive, with experience they'll come back with questions and observations. Then they will be better prepared to make an informed decision.

 

[DCBC]

Not if they had sound presale advice. There's really not much to a BP&W.

To try and present BP&W as too complicated for a new diver is just silly.

Compared to many jackets a hog rigged BP&W is essence of simplicity.

Tobin

True, but if simplicity was the standard, I would have never purchased either one.

I learned to dive with a life vest with a 16 gram CO2 cartridge. Historically, the major reason for the development of buoyancy devices was to enhance diver safety. This was the reason why BP/W device companies went out of business in the 70's.

As an instructor, why would I promote any device that would float an unconscious diver face down in the water? Especially one with little experience in the diving environment.

I'm aware of the arguments but I would hazard to guess that the majority of "Solo Divers" utilize a BP/W. Who's there to roll their unconscious body over when it's face-down in the water?

That said, I've already described that I own a BP/W (as well as a Jacket). They are only tools that should be applied in the appropriate scenario. I might also add that I own several pieces of diving equipment including doubles, mixed gas equipment, decompression computers, Knife, etc. I don't use these in the pool during training. I use (and promote the use) of the right tool for the job...

What the Diver chooses to use however, is a matter of personal choice. It doesn't surprise me that with the decrease of training standards, that safety concerns are not as important as color coordination and design.

 

[cool_hardware52]

As an instructor, why would I promote any device that would float an unconscious diver face down in the water? Especially one with little experience in the diving environment.

Can you please direct me to the list of currently popular jacket or vest BC's that are also US Coast Guard Approved Personal Flotation Devices (PFD)

Tobin

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Can you please direct me to the list of currently popular jacket or vest BC's that are also US Coast Guard Approved Personal Flotation Devices (PFD)

Tobin

Or ANY BC device for that matter.

 

[Web Monkey]

Can you please direct me to the list of currently popular jacket or vest BC's that are also US Coast Guard Approved Personal Flotation Devices (PFD)

Please show me a PFD that only has flotation on the back.

Terry

 

[DCBC]

Can you please direct me to the list of currently popular jacket or vest BC's that are also US Coast Guard Approved Personal Flotation Devices (PFD) Tobin

You know the answer to your own question, so it does not require clarification.

The fact remains that a a Jacket BC will float an unconscious Diver's head out of the water; a BP/W will not correct the wearer's attitude to a vertical one. So where do you want to go with this? Is this something that you dispute, or is it that you don't see any value to this?

 

[leapfrog]

.Life preservers and buoyancy compensators both provide emergency ascent capability. Life preservers are designed to float an unconscious diver in a face up position surface and are mandatory in the US Navy and the British Royal Marines for semi closed and closed-circuit rebreathers (mk16 and LAR V).

Recreational SCUBA buoyancy compensators (without counterweights) are designed to float an unconscious diver on the surface in a heads up vice a face up position. NEVER IN A FACE DOWN POSITION. The use of counterweights in a buoyancy compensator (the best option are pockets on the tank strap) will float an unconscious diver in a face up position on the surface.

 

[cool_hardware52]

You know the answer to your own question, so it does not require clarification.

The fact remains that a a Jacket BC will float an unconscious Diver's head out of the water; a BP/W will not correct the wearer's attitude to a vertical one. So where do you want to go with this? Is this something that you dispute, or is it that you don't see any value to this?

The simple point is BC aren't PFD's If you want a PFD buy one.

If you want reduce the risk of drowning, don't solo dive, get adequately trained, or stay out of the water.

Can you provide any stats that indicate Jackets are "safer"?

Given your statement I'd have to assume there are **Zero** Drownings at the surface associated with Jacket BC's and at least one attributed to a BP&W.

This old tired topic has been beaten to death over and over and over.

Look here http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/buoyancy-compensators-bcs-weight-systems/239026-deaths-due-backplate-wing-rear-inflation-bcds.html

Seven pages of posts without a single reference to a single surface accident attributed to the use of a BP&W.

Some excerpts for those who wish not to read seven pages of old rehashed nonsense.

As has been mentioned, neither is guaranteed or (even likely) to keep an unconcious person face-up in the water. That's your buddy's job.

However I can say with great certainty, that a SS backplate, a set of steel 95's will keep you flat on your back on the surface if you position yourself that way. It's amazingly stable and relaxing, and I plan to spend a lot of time in the water after dives this summer.

Terry

And that, folks, is the bottom line.
And therefore, swinchen's friend should get what works best for him diving, realizing that if unconscious and floating on the surface, it'll most likely be face down, regardless of what sort of BC he gets.
--
As an aside, over the years, with the help of many other divers, I've tested many BC's, wings, harnesses, BPs etc., specifically to address this issue.
With a single AL 80, if a diver will simulate unconsciousness (lock arms in place, and cross the legs to keep them from moving, even accidentally), from a vertical starting position the diver will end up face down with every BC newer than the old Mae West/horse collar styles.
Rick

I know of no BC, jacket or otherwise that will keep an unconscience diver face up at the surface. That is what buddies are for?

Tobin