Do instructors not like to sell BP/W?

[DCBC]

Of course any diver will have to practice more to become more proficient. But they must first demonstrate the ability to perform the skills before receiving the C-Card. Perfection comes with practice. There is nothing different here. But there is not substandard perforamnce acceptance or cutting corners. Either the student performs correctly (but not perfectly) or not.

The ultimate goal of a UTD diver is not to become an instructor, but to become an expedition diver.

Thanks,
Shawn

Hi Shawn,

I fail to see how this course differs from mine, or many other Instructors that I've know. Don't misunderstand me, I think it's great that an organization is promoting instruction like this. A training program of this type was standard 30 years ago. My "basic course" 44 years ago required a similar knowledge base as a PADI Instructors course does today (less the teaching) with the exception that the written exam was much harder. I'm all for increased standards and have been disappointed to see many agencies reduce them over the years.

Although in the minority, there are many Instructors like myself, that teach in a Club setting. There's no hurry to progress through the training process and the course hours for the OW are approx. 400 percent more than a LDS OW. I will not certify anyone to any level unless they meet my requirements as well as the training agencies. I was Navy trained and the Chiefs were notorious for their hard ass attitude. I still teach commercially in a similar way.

My point is that there are still students that have buoyancy difficulties. No group of expertise in instruction can overcome such obstacles. The diver needs time to get it together. I give them more training before they are certified. I have known instructors that would certify them anyway. Perhaps this is the majority; I don't know. It sounds like you're saying that your Instructor was one of them.

What I do know is that there are many Instructors from many certification bodies who do not tolerate cutting corners or certify divers with substandard performance. There are other certification agencies, such as LAC, ACUC International, BSAC, and others that promote excellence. There are many Instuctors in the profession that are proud of the courses they run. From what you're saying UTD is making the attempt to join these ranks.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[leabre]

DCBC, I do not speak for you or those you know. Where I live in Southern California, there is a much different picture with regards to the general quality of Scuba instruction. I have dived many times with newish (less than 20 dives) divers from many of the shops within a 45 minute drive. I have done many OOA assists, they are generally over weighted by about 10-15 lbs, flail all over the place while tring to maintain some semblance of buoyancy, generally bicycle kick like a wasp (legs heavy) and have a real lack of attention when it comes to air supply. That is how new OW divers can be described (in the general sense) where I live. I do not speak for where you live.

In any case, the UTD instruction is like tec in a way, but for Open Water and they do provide a strikingly noticable contrast in the quality of OW eduction, skills, and requirements above just about 98% of others in the area. I realize it is not always the organization, but the instructor, yada yada yada. But in this case, the organization has extremly high standards for this very particular kind of thing. So it is the organization in this case and the instructors.

I don't want to hijack this thread. I was just responding to a comment someone made, and wanted to mention that get very good buoyancy and trim from the get go is possible, but not many instructors attempt it, for whatever their reasons.



Thanks,
Shawn

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I don't want to hijack this thread. I was just responding to a comment someone made, and wanted to mention that get very good buoyancy and trim from the get go is possible, but not many instructors attempt it, for whatever their reasons.



Thanks,
Shawn

I think the reason a majority of instructors teach this way is because they themselves were a product of this same teaching (or lack of teaching). They may have learned to overcome some of these challenges through their at least 100 dives to become instructors, but the mentality remains the same, and they think this is the correct way because they operate in a bubble.
UTD on the other hand sounds like a breakthrough organization. I find that very exciting.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I don't want to hijack this thread. I was just responding to a comment someone made, and wanted to mention that get very good buoyancy and trim from the get go is possible, but not many instructors attempt it, for whatever their reasons.

For starters, the vast majority of posts in this thread have not been on topic so your claim to not want to hijack the thread is as lame as much of what's been posted.

Secondly, and this is way too prevalent here on SB, how in the world can a diver with less than 200 dives (if profile correct) think a statement like "not many instructors attempt it" could possibly be valid?

I've had lots of young intro divers who started out with jacket BC's, doing the first skills on their knees, and after a 45 minute pool session were diving in the ocean and looking better than a lot of certified divers with 75 Cozumel drift dives. But their is no way to say the Coz drift divers instructors didn't try mightily to teach those blobs very good buoyancy; many people just don't give a damn about being a good diver.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I try to put all my students in BP/W's.

How very open minded and flexible of you.

I try to teach my students to think for themselves.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

My girlfriend and I just completed our OW certification and were considering our options on BC equipment. We both thought the BCD's we used during the course were too much equipment and looking for something simpler. I have a buddy who let us try on a BP/W that I liked very much and have come to the conclusion that I want to dive in that. My girlfriend wants the Transpac or the QPac by OMS. Either way both our choices seem unconventional when we tell our LDS what we want in equipment.

So i was wondering why both the Scuba Shops in my town don't want to sell us this equipment or want us to take a tech diving class to use this equipment. And if I buy elsewhere will I have trouble using a BP/W or any Winged BC like the transpac on dive trips with these particular instructors?

I just don't understand why these instructors want us in a jacket style BCD so bad.

I just waded through this thread, something I really tried not to do for over a week. It's the same old s****. I'm wondering why nobody even had the sense to ask any questions of the OP?

How about telling us the vital stats of the 2 students in question; height, weight, fitness level, strength, comfort level in the water, etc? Where do you live and what will be your main diving; vacation or local? If traveling by plane to dive, have you noticed the airlines are charging for the first bag now, and even more for the second? How about a little recreational history; what other activities are you involved in?

How in the world could a reasonably prudent instructor answer any questions about gear selection without knowing the answers to those questions and more?

 

[DCBC]

As the OP asked: "So i was wondering why both the Scuba Shops in my town don't want to sell us this equipment or want us to take a tech diving class to use this equipment. And if I buy elsewhere will I have trouble using a BP/W or any Winged BC like the transpac on dive trips with these particular instructors?" I believe that the discussion that we've been having is directly applicable to the question asked: Instructor intent, knowledge of this equipment and ability is an issue.

The BP/W had its origins in the early 70's, these products were commercially unsuccessful due to the safety issues involved. It's also worthy of notation that "the backplate was invented by Greg Flanagan in 1979 (who incorporated a wing) for cave divers. Bill Hogarth popularized the backplate and harness ... and... Dive Rite began manufacturing backplates for the public in 1984 creating an industry standard that is still followed today" (DiveRite).

I believe that BP/Ws (although excellent for their intended purpose) are considered to be a specialty piece of equipment and are truly appreciated by only a minority of recreational divers. There are of course several reasons for this and this is possibly worth discussing.

Although the BP/W has other applications, perhaps the Instructors involved, could see no reason why a new diver would have a requirement for such equipment; I certainly can't read their minds.

If the OP would like, I have some specialized equipment that he may wish to purchase, such as a Superlight 17C. It's ready for Heliox with a Dirty Harry (UltraJewel 601) for Helium reclamation and I've used it for saturation diving at depths in excess of 1300 feet, so chances are it will be the only mask you will ever need and it does offer other advantages over many other masks that are currently in-use. The LDS probably doesn't stock this piece of equipment either and may wonder why a new diver needs one... Perhaps they are trying to address the majority of the recreational market and not the minority... (Sorry I couldn't help myself; I love to stir the pot)

 

[cool_hardware52]

The BP/W had its origins in the early 70's, these products were commercially unsuccessful due to the safety issues involved.

Do you anything other than your opinion to support this contention? The classic Scubapro blow molded backpack was hugely successful, widely used and variants can still be found today. It's very similar in fit and function to the metal plates in use today. These were commonly used with no BC or with horsecollars.

While I do not accept your premise that safety issues caused the 70's BP&W to be "commercially unsuccessful" I will point out that there are many reasons for any product to fail to gain popularity and safety is usually near the bottom of the list.

I believe that BP/Ws (although excellent for their intended purpose) are considered to be a specialty piece of equipment and are truly appreciated by only a minority of recreational divers.

Funny how those that consider a BP&W "specialty equipment" usually either have no clue about them, or have a financial incentive not to sell them.

Given that BP&W's aren't widely stocked, and few LDS know anything about them, how do you explain their rapidly growing popularity? Anecdotal evidence reveals many more on boats and at popular dive sites, and the number of brands offering BP&W's seems to increase daily.

If the OP would like, I have some specialized equipment that he may wish to purchase, such as a Superlight 17B. It's ready for Heliox and I've used it for saturation diving at depths in excess of 1300 feet, so chances are it will be the only mask you will ever need and it does offer other advantages over many other masks that are currently in-use. The LDS probably doesn't stock this piece of equipment either and may wonder why a new diver needs one... Perhaps they are trying to address the majority of the recreational market and not the minority... (Sorry I couldn't help myself; I love to stir the pot)

To equate a BP&W to a Kirby Morgan Superlight is ridiculous.

The BP&W is a very simple modular BC, widely used by recreational divers, new divers and tech divers. A BP&W is cost competitive with recreational BC's

A KM Superlight OTOH is commercial dive gear. Use requires specialized training, other specialized equipment, and tenders.

If you prefer not to sell BP&W's don't, but your continued contention that they are unsafe, in the absence of any facts, is getting old.


Tobin

 

[Teamcasa]

Given that BP&W's aren't widely stocked, and few LDS know anything about them, how do you explain their rapidly growing popularity?

ScubaBoard and the internet.

 

[cool_hardware52]

ScubaBoard and the internet.

How can that possibly be true if BP&W's are the death traps some wish us to believe they are?

Good thing all those high minded LDS's are "Saving" the vast majority of divers from buying "specialty" gear that's just waiting to kill them.

I know I sleep better with these guys on the job.

Tobin