Do cave divers need wreck training?

[boulderjohn]

In recent years we have had several cases in which highly trained and experienced cave divers have made navigational errors or other errors in relatively benign cave situations that have led to their deaths. If you have a problem in a cave, say a navigational mistake or a momentary siltout (or both), and you solve that problem, you may then have the sickening realization that you do not have enough gas to travel the thousands of feet to the entrance, even though you know the way and there is no impediment to your travel. That can happen in even the most well-traveled and well known caves, as is true in the incidents that are popping into my head as I write.

• In a cave in Mexico a few years ago, a very experienced diver apparently came to an intersection that he had not properly marked on the way in and made a wrong turn. He realized it before long, turned to the correct direction, but did not have enough gas to make it out. He came very close, but he did not make it.
• In Florida a couple of years ago, two divers on scooters took a wrong turn and ended up in a silted out passage. One got out right away and headed for home. The other got out later, but did not have enough gas to make it out. Fortunately, he knew where a friend had stashed a stage bottle intended for a future dive, and he made it.
• In Florida a few years ago two divers took their scooters back into a cave, where they had a siltout in a tight passage. One of them turned and headed back to the entrance on her scooter. The other got out of the silted passage later, but without the scooter. He tried to swim out, but he came up a couple hundred feet short.
• In another recent Florida case, a deceased diver was found well back in a cave with empty tanks. No one knows how he managed to get that far back without enough gas to come even close to an exit.

You can have similar situations in a wreck, but in a wreck, you will never have thousands of feet to cover on a dwindling gas supply. The differences in the distances that need to be traveled is a significant difference in the two kinds of diving.

 

[boulderjohn]

Wreck divers in much of the world really do not have the opportunity to dive wrecks that demand advanced training. If you looked at the video I posted earlier, you saw a couple of what appear to be fairly inexperienced OW divers exploring the wide open wreck of the Tracey, which is about 70 feet to sand. That wreck is typical of the wrecks that are part of the artificial reef system in South Florida. If you go into nearly any overhead environment, you will have a couple of exits within a few feet of you, with light streaming in from several directions. Lights are usually not needed. Any silt kicked up will usually create nothing worse than the sense of diving in fog. The wrecks have been stripped of any potential source of entanglement. I would bet that there are many South Florida divers who have hundreds of wreck dives in their log books who have never even seen a wreck where it would really be necessary to lay line.

I have dived wrecks all over the world, and that describes the majority of those I have seen. Yes, there are wrecks that do indeed require more advanced skills, but those are in the minority.

 

[oldschoolto]

More chest thumping by the cave divers... But, Go down to cave country or on a cave diver site and all you hear about is this shop sucks and this instructor is sport death and needs there card pulled.. My gear is the cats meow and the stuff you have is going to get you killed..

Jim...

 

[The Chairman]

More chest thumping by the cave divers...

I listed just a few of the actual differences as prescribed by standards. How is that chest thumping? Again, are you cave certified? Would that be through one of the agencies that have watered down the standards or NSS-CDS? I hear the high school JV smack talk about the chest thumping of the NFL teams and what does that really tell me? That there's a lot of bravado and very little to back it up. Don't be the type of person who jumps into a cave thinking your wreck cert is all you need. It's not even close. Get the training for entering a cave before you become a statistic.

​

 

[boulderjohn]

More chest thumping by the cave divers...

I dive many more wrecks than I dive caves.

Was there anything I wrote that was factually inaccurate? Please point it out--I would love to be corrected.

 

[tursiops]

My log book shows 137 wreck dives of all types (but none in fresh water), including technical and just swimming around the outside, and 165 cave dives (in three countries). I've had both full cave (plus cave stage and cave sidemount) and Advanced Wreck training, but I guess by experience I'm a cave diver. Cave diving (after all the instruction!) can be a lot cheaper!

Frankly, wrecks scare me: the combination of their navigation, the sharp/rusty edges, and their instability makes me nervous. I don't find my interest in them high enough (with certain notable exceptions, like the Monitor) to overcome my concerns.

What I DO like about wrecks is the animal life often around them. And I like the (usually very small) animal life in a lot of caves, too, like worms and remipedes, and I am totally fascinated by the decorated caves with myriad and enormous crystalline structures, as in Mexico and the Bahamas.

I'm sure there are some excellent wreck instructors; the ones I've met or dived with (US East Coast folks) have not shown substantial finesse, but more of a slam-bang kind of approach. Perfectly valid for getting a porthole, I guess.

 

[Mark IV]

Damn! That was scary ! Definitely got my heart racing !! This little 10 minute video might should be shown in every single Open Water course ( but maybe at the end of it, not the beginning ).

 

[DevonDiver]

How long is your basic wreck class? a day or two? How long is your 'advanced wreck' class? Two days? Three days?

A typical cavern class is two days. Another two days for intro. Another two days for Apprentice. Yet another two days for Full Cave. Hopefully, with lots of practice in between. Yet, that's not even ADVANCED cave. That's an entirely different animal.

You're comparing apples to oranges. BTW, are you full cave certified? How about through the NSS-CDS? Are you certified to teach cave? Again, how about through the NSS-CDS? @Capt Jim Wyatt is. @kensuf is. They are the few and far between real deals in this sport. I could name others, but they are in this thread.

You're comparing apples to oranges without ever having tasted an orange. Those of us who have can easily see the difference. You can denigrate everyone else and brag about how superior your class is and those who have done both will simply snicker. Advanced wreck training is probably the equivalent of a Cavern cert. You have to lay out a line, but there are no directional decisions. No arrows. No cookies. There's a simulated "silt out" but no lights out drill. No air share with lights out from deep in the bowels of the ship either. It might give the student an illusion of being prepared, and a macho rush but it's not long enough. Not strict enough. Almost everyone passes. Not so with full cave. There are plenty of "Come to Jesus" moments structured in a typical full cave class. Full cave is a big deal. Advanced Wreck is just another piece of plastic. I have both. I can teach the latter. The requirements are different. No amount of smack talk or bravado will change that.

Technical Wreck class is usually around 5-8 days.

Perhaps you didn't understand the level of training being discussed? It's worth some research before making pronouncements in public...

For example, i teach 3 wreck classes;

Basic Wreck - Non-penetration and/or into-to-penetration. Typically 4 dives.

Advanced Wreck - Recreational penetration akin to Cavern / Intro-Cave. Typically 4-6 dives. Light zone, 40m, no passage of restrictions, rule of 1/3rds. 4-6 dives.

Technical Wreck - Equivalent to full cave, with decompression at least to extended range/heliox or nomoxic, full penetration, passage through restrictions... 8+ dives.

There's also Advanced Sidemount Overhead - which is open to both experienced full cave or technical wreck sidemount divers. Dealing with stages and extreme restrictions.

I do technical wreck penetrations here that last 90-120 minutes (bottom overhead, not runtime). No easy or timely exits...silty, highly restricted. I've had Florida cave divers who've turned those dives as they were "too stressful". Bigger bellied guys wouldn't even fit through...

As BoulderJohn stated, that's not necessarily common - but for those into it, there's many places to go. The biggest mistake is to make crass assumptions based on what you don't know, or have never seen, and then proclaim those assumptions and look foolish.

I have ample respect for cave pioneers doing cutting edge, extreme deep or duration exploration... . but these pot-bellied, desk dwelling, weekender cavers who chug around in clear, wide passages that get more traffic than a mall escalator... shouldn't really get judgemental based on self-awarded delusions of grandeur.

There's levels of challenge in both wreck and cave.... that means there's wreck penetrations that'd make the "average" caver wet their panties.... and, of course, caves that present logistical and proficiency challenges that make them a preserve for only the highest of world-class divers.

 

[The Chairman]

@DevonDiver You didn't answer my questions. I'll repeat them for you.

Are you full cave? Was that through NSS-CDS?
Are you a full cave instructor? Is this through NSS-CDS?

 

[Mark IV]

@DevonDiver You didn't answer my questions. I'll repeat them for you.

Are you full cave? Was that through NSS-CDS?
Are you a full cave instructor? Is this through NSS-CDS?

It appears that would a "no", but pretty impressive resume,nonetheless.
Andy Davis | Sidemount Technical Wreck Diving Instructor | Philippines