Do cave divers need wreck training?

[Miyaru]

After diving wrecks for many years and staying far away from caves, I only recently added cave diving to my list. For me personally, cave and wreck have more differences than similarities. Basic skills regarding buoyancy and fin techniques are the same for both types, I use the same equipment for wreck or cave. Gas planning is the same, although the cave dictates your profile, while a wreck gives you the freedom to follow an ascent plan with all the space and freedom above it.

My experience:

• Wrecks are man-made structures. You will fit through doors and stairwells, not through windows. Unless sand fills up the wreck. There's usually more than one exit.
• Right-side up wrecks are easy. Any other position messes with your mind and can be a navigation hazard.
• A wreck is dynamic. Bubbles can cause siltouts from algae, even entire cable sets can come down because your bubbles were the breaking point. Structures will collapse someday, fortunately never on my dives.
• Wrecks are usually deep, last group sends the anchor and line up from the bottom, requiring an ascent in the blue, no place to stage gasses, so you have all gasses with you on the entire dive.
• Weather can change fast, I've experienced flat seas while descending, only to come up 90 minutes later in 2m waves. I always plan my last stop at 6m/20ft in the ocean, in caves at 3m/10ft.

• Caves are lifeless. I only experienced one cave where algae on the ceiling caused bad vis on the way back. Best visibility I've had in caves compared to any other type of dive.
• Since they're not man-made but centuries old, structural changes are less likely to occur.
• Weather has a slow influence. Heavy rainfall takes a few days to influence a cave with regards to current and visibility, and is very predictable using the experiences from other divers. Rainfall on the same day can change rivers to mud streams with no visibility but once you enter a cave (spring) the visibilty is crystal clear.
• Penetration is much farther. Caves look different on the way out compared to the way in, especially when I dive a cave for the first time.
• Navigational mistakes take much longer to realize and could add significant distance to a dive, messing up my gas planning. Some wrecks I would dive without a line, but I don't have the guts to enter a cave without one. Lines and navigation decisions require line markers and a standardized way of using markers, so you won't mess up the navigation from other divers, and you can find your way out, regardless of what other divers do. I never needed this knowledge in a wreck.
• Same way out. I only know of 1 cave with a second exit, but haven't done both entrances yet. Same way out means I can drop tanks on the line and will retrieve them on the way back. No need to bring all gasses during the entire dive.

There's not that much difference between agencies when it comes to wreck diving. For some reason, the agency isn't even a subject when talking to wreck divers, but when it comes to cave diving, it's surprising how many god complexes you might encounter. Especially the fundamentalists who add religious indoctrination to the courses they teach. The I-am-better-than-them attitude among instructors seems to be a teaching requirement.

Cave diving is split up in three courses with most agencies, I've done all three and learned new things on each course and each dive. A lot of that knowledge is not needed for a wreck dive. Maybe mine diving is an example of where you would need the knowledge of both. It's a cave like environment but man-made. All aspects from a wreck dive can be added to a cave dive. But I haven't experienced any mine diving yet.

Some caves are large enough to house a wreck....

 

[tursiops]

Ok, so educate me on the greatness of NOAA.

Here's the problem. NOAA has over 700 line items, each with congressional scrutiny and interest, and almost no ability to move money between those line items. Their hands are very much tied by the Congressional appropriations process, and by the Dept of Commerce. DOC decides what goes into the budget request, and Congress decides what gets appropriated. The Norfolk Congress people and state Senators need to ensure NOAA gets the money to keep the Monitor preservation going, because, frankly, no one else in Congress cares. It is money going to their districts...and they need to work to get it. And they are more likely to work on getting some money if they know their constituents care, and will vote accordingly. So it starts with you, and your buddies, to make it clear to your Congressman that his continued existence requires him getting money for NOAA to do its preservation task, and make the artifacts available to the public.

I care too. I visited the museum in 2007 after diving on the Monitor, and was greatly impressed by the work going on. But I don't vote for your Congressman...so it starts locally.

 

[tomfcrist]

Nice story, doesn’t change the fact that they are trying to restrict access to the entire outer banks shipwreck fleet.

The question still stands...why would a government agency salvage a war grave? Why would they then not have the foresight when they did it to ensure proper preservation and display of the artifacts?

By their own admission, they salvaged 200 tons of the monitor. For what? So that they could mismanage the resource and further limit access?

 

[tursiops]

Nice story, doesn’t change the fact that they are trying to restrict access to the entire outer banks shipwreck fleet.

The question still stands...why would a government agency salvage a war grave? Why would they then not have the foresight when they did it to ensure proper preservation and display of the artifacts?

By their own admission, they salvaged 200 tons of the monitor. For what? So that they could mismanage the resource and further limit access?

No, they did it solely so you could bitch about it. You're doing fine.

 

[tomfcrist]

No, they did it solely so you could bitch about it. You're doing fine.

This coming from someone that was completely ignorant to who directed the salvage to begin with.

Honestly, if they want to salvage and preserve artifacts..I’m good with it. Just don’t be hypocritical and do it while forbidding others to do the same.

However, they moved the bodies of sailors...that’s personal to me. I have a very strong opinion about desiccating the grave of my brothers.

 

[boulderjohn]

That's not exactly what I had in mind when I wrote "hard overhead environment." And, no, I'm not going to attempt to define it precisely.

And that was my point.

There are extremely simple cases where even the most basic and inexperienced diver can go through an overhead in what is called a "swim-though" with ease; in fact, as we discovered in a thread a year ago, PADI will even allow it for very short swim-throughs on OW checkout dives. At the other end of the range of complications are wreck penetrations that will challenge the most thoroughly trained and experienced wreck divers in history. When it comes to laying line, the wreck diver has to learn to make decisions about what to do in specific cases, and your decision and my decision will not always be the same. Unless a cave diver wants to break established protocols (and some do), there is no decision to be made--you are laying line.

 

[DevonDiver]

Not even close. The regimen and discipline to become a full cave diver is so far beyond any wreck diver class that this is simply laughable. It's like comparing the skill set and comprehension of a doctor to a guy who has just passed a first aid class, especially if you consider NSS-CDS training as the standard. Certainly, a number of agencies have screwed this distinction up, or at least they are trying to screw it up, but I would trust a full caver over anyone who had not earned that distinction in any environment.

It just sounds like you had ****** wreck training then.

As I said, there's a little bit of space outside 'mercia ... (that may surprise some)... and practices can vary greatly.

I get the impression that there's some sigificant variation in wreck versus cave training quality IN AMERICA ... I dont see that difference pronounced in other regions.

Why is American wreck training so dismal (as people seem to suggest)?

I'lI note that comparison has to be between full cave and TECHNICAL wreck. Obviously mainstream agency 'wreck diver' courses dont amount to much.... I wouldn't even class them as true penetration courses (even light zone only).

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I have seen a well known, famous wreck instructor use strobe lights instead of a reel/line to guide he and his students out of the Spiegel Grove. I witnessed this happening...I was stunned.......

 

[Coztick]

As I said, there's a little bit of space outside 'mercia ..

???

 

[The Chairman]

Why is American wreck training so dismal (as people seem to suggest)?

How long is your basic wreck class? a day or two? How long is your 'advanced wreck' class? Two days? Three days?

A typical cavern class is two days. Another two days for intro. Another two days for Apprentice. Yet another two days for Full Cave. Hopefully, with lots of practice in between. Yet, that's not even ADVANCED cave. That's an entirely different animal.

You're comparing apples to oranges. BTW, are you full cave certified? How about through the NSS-CDS? Are you certified to teach cave? Again, how about through the NSS-CDS? @Capt Jim Wyatt is. @kensuf is. They are the few and far between real deals in this sport. I could name others, but they are in this thread.

You're comparing apples to oranges without ever having tasted an orange. Those of us who have can easily see the difference. You can denigrate everyone else and brag about how superior your class is and those who have done both will simply snicker. Advanced wreck training is probably the equivalent of a Cavern cert. You have to lay out a line, but there are no directional decisions. No arrows. No cookies. There's a simulated "silt out" but no lights out drill. No air share with lights out from deep in the bowels of the ship either. It might give the student an illusion of being prepared, and a macho rush but it's not long enough. Not strict enough. Almost everyone passes. Not so with full cave. There are plenty of "Come to Jesus" moments structured in a typical full cave class. Full cave is a big deal. Advanced Wreck is just another piece of plastic. I have both. I can teach the latter. The requirements are different. No amount of smack talk or bravado will change that.