Do cave divers need wreck training?

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@victorzamora

You're missing the point. Its not a dick swinging contest. I'm merely explaining what Technical Wreck training is, in comparison to cave.

Andy, I don't know or think I know anything about wrecks. I have no intention of measuring anything against anyone else. Despite wrecks not going for tens of thousands of feet, they're dangerous and treacherous environments that are absolutely no joke, and they should be treated with respect.

However, you made a comparison that was disingenuous at best.

Looking at your website, it seems like: "Advanced Wreck" is similar to Cavern in that it's a lot of Tech Fundamentals, first time reel handling, and penetration only as far as the light is visible. The rule in Cavern is that the ambient light must allow navigation to be possible or that ambient light must be your primary source of light (although that's broken more often than not). It seems like "Basic Wreck" is far too basic to compare to anything technical. Seems like your "Technical Wreck" is pretty equivalent to "Full Cave" in that it's zero-ambient light, "real" penetration, and navigation. So, knocking Tech50 and "Basic Wreck" off of your list, it seems like 8days/12dives of your curriculum should cover many/most things covered in Cavern->Full Cave at 8/16. Seems like it's very likely that wreck depth and dive logistics would limit your dive count over the 8 days of training.

Is my above understanding closer to accurate?
 
@victorzamora Here's what you need to understand on the combination of decompression / technical training and technical wreck:

Most, if not all, contemporary technical wreck courses were originally drafted using full cave as the template.

However, wrecks tend to be deeper than most cave systems. The diver needs to get down to the wreck and still have ample bottom time to complete a meaningful penetration. This made decompression training a logical prerequisite.

There's lots of caves where students can achieve meaningful training penetrations without incurring deco. There aren't many wrecks that offer the same. Wrecks tend to deteriorate quickly in shallow depths.

Given that technical wreck students should already possess solid proficiency in technical decompression diving, it would be ludicrous to repeat the elements of cave training that deal with technical equipment, long hose, signals, propulsion, trim, buoyancy, communication, use of lights etc etc

To do so would be a completely unnecessary replication. As a consequence, these elements were logically removed from the syllabus - thus shortening it.

Nothing was removed from the syllabus regarding overhead environment penetration skills, drills and procedures.

Some elements are also added, specific to diving wrecks - deploying ascent lines, marine hazards, risk awarenss and mitigation for unique wreck hazards; loose electrical wiring, fishing nets and lines, unstable structures and collapse leading to injury or entrapment.

The environmental theory is, obviously, different. We consider current, surge and tide, rather than flow. We deal with man-made particulates, rather than tanninity etc. We learn about chemical contamination from cargos or fuels, rather than naturally occurring hydrogen sulfide etc. Preserving artifacts, rather than rock formations. Silt issues remain silt issues though...

What I'm saying is that a properly trained technical wreck diver should, upon culmination of all required training, possess a level of overhead environment proficiency comparable to a full cave diver - but suitable and specific for a different nature of overhead environment.

Technical Wreck students don't tend, in my experience, to leap into that training directly after completing OC technical training. They are normally more experienced and accomplished technical divers.

As has already been mentioned, experienced tech divers tend to progress faster in overhead training. They've already long surpassed that 'steep learning curve' that recreational divers experience when they first transition into tech kit, team diving, complex protocols etc.

If a qualified, but less accomplished, tech diver did enroll onto technical wreck training - they would expect a longer course timescale to resolve any performance deficits which may be a liability for the overhead environment.

Personally, I don't tend to conduct more than two training dives per day. Usually long dives 60 to 120 minutes each. Allowing time for theory, dry rehearsals and dive planning, that's already a demanding schedule. Most students don't have the physical and mental stamina to give 100% focus if you cram more in.... they might try, but their performance usually declines sharply. That becomes unproductive training.

Subic Bay, specifically, is a mecca for technical wreck because we have big vessels in shallow water... 20-30m. It's an enclosed, very sheltered bay and that has preserved the wreck structures well against storms, currents etc. We get longer dives with easier logistics, much less cost (no trimix reqd!) and minimal decompression. There's four technical wreck instructors working in Subic currently, and many other technical wreck instructors from around SE Asia visit here sporadically to run their courses.

Running technical wreck classes on deeper wrecks is much less efficient. Bigger deco, more cost and significant limitations on bottom time. The emphasis of the course should be on the penetration, not on the deco that just gets you back to the surface.
 
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@victorzamora Here's what you need to understand on the combination of decompression / technical training and technical wreck:

Technical Wreck students don't tend, in my experience, to leap into that training directly after completing OC technical training. They are normally more experienced and accomplished technical divers.

Nevermind.
 
Cave is a linear course progression, wheras wreck progresses in tandem with technical decompression training.

Recreational divers cannot enrol on a technical wreck course. It is the preserve of experienced technical divers.

They will begin training with at least 12 technical training dives under their belt; in which they will have mastered full technical equipment, procedures, protocols and accelerated decompression to extended range level, often with trimix also.

Technical Wreck only has to teach penetration specific proficiencies, hence the lower minimum dive/day requirement.

Using my RAID system as an example, the total training necessary would encompass:
  • Basic Wreck - 1 day/2 dives
  • Advanced Wreck - 4 days/6 dives
  • Deco50 - 8 days/12 dives
  • Technical Wreck - 4 days/6 dives
I think you are misinformed. When I took classes I did Cave1, Cave2, Tec45, Cave3, Cave4 in that order.
 
I think you are misinformed. When I took classes I did Cave1, Cave2, Tec45, Cave3, Cave4 in that order.

Perhaos my use of linear and tandem is confusing?

Cavern-Intro-Cave1-Cave2 were linear, then you had to complete Tech45 or equiv (tandem), then linear again with Cave3 and Cave4.

Previously, we'd only been discussing comparison of tech wreck versus full cave levels.

What really differs is just if/when OC tech is done. For tech wreck its a prerequisite before the first full overhead course. In cave it comes afterwards.

This is an example of how the cave and wreck environments have a different emphasis on deco.

With tech wreck, the diver must be a proficient open water technical diver first, before training in overhead. For cave, its the opposite; the emphasis is on being a proficient overhead diver first, then adding decompression training subsequently.

Nonetheless, at the major certification points, either diver should possess a comparable set of proficiencies.

The major difference exists in technical cave. Learning to deco in the overhead is something a technical wreck diver doesn't do. They will invariably exit the overhead and deco in open ocean.

As a technical wreck diver, my experience with overhead deco is zero.
 
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I agree. Caves are caves and wrecks are wrecks. However, I think the overall level of baseline training in the cave community exceeds that of the wreck community. This may or may not qualify a cave diver to dive on wrecks, but I feel safer doing a wreck dive as a cave diver, than I would if I were a wreck diver trying to dive caves.

I genuinely believe this is because of the standardized curriculum of training in cave diving. If the wreck community had a standardized training curriculum on the same level as the cave community, the comparison would be better defined. For example, I know exactly what is expected in a cave course from any agency. The minimum standards are well beyond what is expected of most recreational divers. I know that I would receive an excellent course of wreck training from John Chatterton, or DevonDiver, however I can't go to any random wreck instructor and get that same level of training like I could in a cave course. Of course there are always exceptions to both, but comparatively the general baseline level of training is much more consistent in the cave community.

Cave and wreck are two different animals!
Your cave procedures can get you killed in or at a wreck! So does vice versa! Don't go beyond your training and abilities!
 
Surely any cave course would still have covered these hazards though? What skills are covered in advanced Wreck that are not covered in a cave course?

Wreck diving is something that I'd like to get into but I was thinking that I'd be better off doing a cave course and then using those skills in wrecks. I feel like the risk of getting an instructor who is just there to tick a box outweighs the risk of encountering something in a wreck that I haven't been trained for in a cave. My thinking is mostly based on this article.
Thoughts?

Here is a tiny fact: a compass won't work inside a wreck, but it will in a cave! Leaving stage bottles at a wreck just like you would in a cave can cost your live! Just as it did in shadow divers! Read the book!
 
Some fuel on the fire:
I think it is accepted that a diver enters a wreck where it is not accepted that a diver enters a cave without training. Why? Wreckdiving is sometimes part of the most basic courses, ow and aow. A lot of wrecks are sunk completely stripped to enjoy divers. That means: you can enter them safe, otherwise the autorities would not do this. OR? You see here sportsdivers enter and swim through the wrecks. No warnings, guides do it on guiding, etc. I think the rule 'no overhead without training' is broken directly. Or are stripped wrecks no overhead? Where I live are no caves, but we have plenty of wrecks. In the fresh water lakes here, 'wrecks' (small boats, cars, buses) are stripped. They are made to swim through. So I learned to do this during my ow course. On the other hand, I was always warned for caves. From there I went to the Northsea to do real wreckdiving. And yes the others penetrate, so I started to do it also. Just do what others do (including starting solodiving). Caves where 'forbidden'. Then I did my cave class and caves where 'allowed' too. Since then I know how to run a line properly. I don't teach wreck, but I advice sometimes others.
Every wreckdiver is called a wreckdiver, even if he/she never penetrates a wreck, but you have caverndivers, intro divers and cavedivers. So do cavedivers need wrecktraining depends on what they want to do in wrecks.

The discussion here must be: can full cave divers start to penetrate wrecks and learn within the autodidactal way as they know the techniques and read about the differences AND stay withing their personal comfortzone and abilities? Most cavedivers have done some wreckdiving in their sportsdivingcareer. That a compass is not working in a steel environment (in a cave no required tool) they must know already. So can they start using the line techniques and learn themselves without forgetting their limits and abilities?

Maybe I am not a real wreckdiver as I don't like equipmentremoval in a wreck :wink: (I prefer caves over wrecks, and most of my deep stuff is done in caves, have now planned some deep stuff on walls)
 
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