Do cave divers need wreck training?

[TrimixToo]

Here is a tiny fact: a compass won't work inside a wreck, but it will in a cave! Leaving stage bottles at a wreck just like you would in a cave can cost your live! Just as it did in shadow divers! Read the book!

I have read what I think are all three books that include information about the Rouse's misadventure, and spoken personally and at some length with one of the authors, and I have a very different point of view. I think the Rouses did not die because they staged their deco gas, but because they could not find it, had insufficient reserves to do the necessary deco without it (like most of us, they had no lost gas plan to cover losing all of it), and were too debilitated upon reaching the surface to accept more gas and resubmerge to do the deco they needed to survive. A very similar thing happened to Bernie Chowdhury as well, as he has written of, but he was fortunate enough to survive it.

I routinely stage my deco gas, typically in one of three places: At the upline (but *not* attached to it!), outside the entrance I use to start penetration, or not far inside that same entrance. In any event, they are clipped to something solid, and my line leads me back to them. On exit, I will find them with or without visibility. Inside the wreck they would be a liability, adding to my profile, increasing complexity for negotiating restrictions, increasing the risk of entanglement, and sometimes entirely preventing me from going where I would otherwise go with relative ease.

Staging them is the only practical way to solve these problems. In this respect, and perhaps only in this respect, OC is better than CCR for penetration in my opinion. A CCR diver cannot safely stage bailouts the way an OC diver can stage gases that are unbreathable at depth. I don't sidemount, but a SM diver staging deco gas can get in and out of spaces I cannot pass with a quick unclip/get through/reclip sequence that reduces the diver's profile and does not even require slowing down to pass the restriction.

 

[Germie]

Ok, the answer is: SOME cave divers need or want additional wrecktraining. SOME OTHERS can do it with the autodidactical way and extend their limits themselves. I think all is answered.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have read what I think are all three books that include information about the Rouse's misadventure, and spoken personally and at some length with one of the authors, and I have a very different point of view. I think the Rouses did not die because they staged their deco gas, but because they could not find it, had insufficient reserves to do the necessary deco without it (like most of us, they had no lost gas plan to cover losing all of it), and were too debilitated upon reaching the surface to accept more gas and resubmerge to do the deco they needed to survive. A very similar thing happened to Bernie Chowdhury as well, as he has written of, but he was fortunate enough to survive it.

I routinely stage my deco gas, typically in one of three places: At the upline (but *not* attached to it!), outside the entrance I use to start penetration, or not far inside that same entrance. In any event, they are clipped to something solid, and my line leads me back to them. On exit, I will find them with or without visibility. Inside the wreck they would be a liability, adding to my profile, increasing complexity for negotiating restrictions, increasing the risk of entanglement, and sometimes entirely preventing me from going where I would otherwise go with relative ease.

Staging them is the only practical way to solve these problems. In this respect, and perhaps only in this respect, OC is better than CCR for penetration in my opinion. A CCR diver cannot safely stage bailouts the way an OC diver can stage gases that are unbreathable at depth. I don't sidemount, but a SM diver staging deco gas can get in and out of spaces I cannot pass with a quick unclip/get through/reclip sequence that reduces the diver's profile and does not even require slowing down to pass the restriction.

I'd be hesitant to stage my deco bottles under some conditions. I've been on wrecks where the vis was so bad we had difficulty finding the upline ... in one case we never did find it and had to do a free ascent from about 215 feet. Was glad to have my deco bottles with me on that one ... although we did reserve enough for backgas deco if necessary. But that would've made for a very cold 1.5 hour ascent ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

I'd be hesitant to stage my deco bottles under some conditions.

Yes, but this is (or should be) a part of the training for decompression diving. On every decompression dive at any site, you make that decision. Making such a decision is (or should be) part of the training for decompression dives to both caves and wrecks.

 

[TrimixToo]

I'd be hesitant to stage my deco bottles under some conditions. I've been on wrecks where the vis was so bad we had difficulty finding the upline ... in one case we never did find it and had to do a free ascent from about 215 feet. Was glad to have my deco bottles with me on that one ... although we did reserve enough for backgas deco if necessary. But that would've made for a very cold 1.5 hour ascent ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think most everyone has missed an upline once. Reels are not hard to learn to use, though, so I think "one" ought to be a lifetime's worth missed uplines. ("Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.")

As I said before, "In any event, they [staged tanks] are clipped to something solid, and my line leads me back to them." If the visibility is even slightly marginal, my line will start within reach of (but not attached to!) the upline. My tanks might be staged there, or staged at an entrance, but if visibility is in question they will be clipped together with my line tied to them. So to lose the tanks, I have to lose the line. Never have I been lost when running a line. If you run it with care you can follow it back in zero visibility.

I have also never lost a line for real (for reel?). Nonetheless, I do lost line drills from time to time and try to make secondary ties frequently enough to keep the last tie within reach of my finger spool.

 

[Diver-Drex]

I'd be hesitant to stage my deco bottles under some conditions. I've been on wrecks where the vis was so bad we had difficulty finding the upline ... in one case we never did find it and had to do a free ascent from about 215 feet. Was glad to have my deco bottles with me on that one ... although we did reserve enough for backgas deco if necessary. But that would've made for a very cold 1.5 hour ascent ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

In a situation like this why aren’t you using a line? Typically divers here carry wreck reels for navigation. This is great for low vis and critical on broken up wrecks where there is no continuous structure to follow back to the up line. It makes even more sense if you’re dropping cylinders.

 

[DevonDiver]

In a situation like this why aren’t you using a line? Typically divers here carry wreck reels for navigation. This is great for low vis and critical on broken up wrecks where there is no continuous structure to follow back to the up line. It makes even more sense if you’re dropping cylinders.

Whether penetration or external to the wreck, a guideline provides a reliable method of returning to staged tanks and/or ascent line on wrecks.

If there's any doubt, and not returning to a given point poses a risk, then running line is just as prudent (critical) as it would be in overhead.

 

[The Chairman]

. I don't know anyone with a "Deep Cave" or "Trimix Cave" or any sort of card covering helium in caves.

Eagle's nest requires both full cave and hypoxic trimix... or it will soon. this idea of CCR and Cave CCR is ludicrous.

and those with their fingers in their ears sticking stubbornly to ego-fuelled assumptions that only serve to trumpet their supposed superiority.

Again, why the aspersions? It looks like you're putting your inferiority complex on full display here. Before you point a finger at others' egos, you might want to try a mirror first. It appears that only the wreckers are calling people names. Why is that?

 

[Germie]

If ccr cave is ludicrous, then a wreckcourse is it too for a full cave diver. Same with sidemount.

 

[lowviz]

@CAPTAIN SINBAD I have become one of your true fans. You used to piss me off by starting the most subtly controversial threads in the most naive wording.

You, sir, are an artist.