Do cave divers need wreck training?

[tursiops]

Access to wrecks cannot be regulated.

I can think of at least two (real wrecks, not made-for-diving wrecks) for which the access is regulated. I'm sure there are others.

@DevonDiver I used to really enjoy your posts, and wondered what it would be like to take a class from you. But recently you have come across as such a narrow-minded, mean-spirited, pissed-at-the-world curmudgeon that I find I'm tuning out. too bad.

 

[DevonDiver]

I'm saying about wreck diving only what's agreed and said about cave diving.

For some reason that's "narrow minded"?

I tend to think it's more a case of being an inconvenient truth that's contrary to the financial interests of those perpetuating low standard overhead environment training under steel, not stone.

If a cave instructor taught, or said, the sort of things illustrated by some wreck instructors they'd become pariahs in the cave community.

But if a wreck instructor expresses what's accepted as the norm in cave diving, they're castigated as a pariah by some other wreck instructors ... for having higher expectations. Laughable really, when you think about it...

 

[The Chairman]

There IS wreck training available that equals cavern/cave in every respect.

This is written out of ignorance. You haven't done the training to say that.

It seems that some in the cave community seek to wilfully ignore that fact, merely to salve ego and maintain a fictitious notion that cave must be superior to all, bar none.

Why ascribe your motives to others? You want equivalency without actually earning it. You're only deceiving yourself when you do.

In contrast, the wreck community accepts a muppet-show free-for-all approach,

So, the consistency is not "fictitious". By your own words you've identified the real problem in accepting wreck as equal to full cave.

whereby any self-designated 'expert'

Would that include you?

The cave community and especially the NSS-CDS has resisted the tendency to include everyone who wants to be an instructor as such. That's not an accident but a commitment to excellence. While many non NSS-CEDS instructors may resent that, it's obviously true. You can try to tear down the NSS-CDS as @DevonDiver is trying to do to bring it down to his level: OR THEY CAN EMULATE THEIR SUCCESS. It will take time and a similar commitment to excellence, but their's is a tradition to copy. No, I'm not an NSS-CDS instructor, but I know the real deal when I see it. Call that elitism if you want, but why is it a bad thing to ID the truly elite? Leave the jealousy and pettiness behind and accept that they've done a superior job in teaching. It's not that you're bad: it's just that they are exceptional. Of course, without the humility to accept reality, you really can't begin to copy it.

Cave divers are conditioned to accept and apply prudent standards and procedures.

We get that from our instructors. Again, why isn't this true for wreck?

 

[tursiops]

Again, why isn't this true for wreck?

I think what he is saying is that wreck instructors suck, except for him.

 

[JohnnyC]

The 'industry' doesn't set standards for either cave or wreck. Agencies do...

Agencies have to conform to those standards or risk their qualifications being refused as unacceptable in some cases.

One of these things is not like the other. Whether you like it or not, the industry (which is made up of agencies, manufacturers, instructors, divers) dictates the practices, it's up to the agencies to form their own standards that meet what the industry determines as acceptable.

 

[Tassi Devil Diver]

In this debate I think it needs to be remembered that the cave diving fraternity around the world had to get their **** together or face the prospect of being more heavily regulated by governments or having caves closed due the deaths that occurred in the early days, this resulted in a more consistent cave diving curriculum.

Caves can be more easily regulated because they are usually located on government controlled land or on private property. It is much more difficult to regulate wrecks in the ocean, though they can be regulated because of historic value. I am not cave trained or wreck trained, I have penetrated wrecks and I can do so because there little or no regulation.

I think the PADI type wreck course is a joke which is why I have never done one, but I am on the lookout for a quality wreck course in my region.

 

[DevonDiver]

I think what he is saying is that wreck instructors suck, except for him.

Not quite sure how you could infer that from anything I've said. There's a list of wreck instructors I respect greatly. It's a relatively small list, given that virtually every instructor teaches wreck.

They're all instructors qualified, and who dive, at a higher level of wreck...

... Just like cavern instructors who must be full cave also.... wheras a recreational wreck instructor might well have self-certified with zero penetration experience, or after a 1-day 'wreck instructor' training course.

Perhaps its just me, but my opinion is that a full cave instructor teaching cavern deserves a 'little' more respect than some guy who did a 1-day teaching course. Likewise, a full technical wreck instructor might know 'a thing or two' that some potential bottom-churner with "25 logged wreck dives, penetration not necessary" might not have had an opportunity to even imagine...

As for agencies teaching differently, lets use an example: RAID recreational wreck teaches 6 different tie-off techniques. Illustrated in the manual and demanded practiced in-water by training standards. How many are illustrated in the PADI Wreck Diver manual and necessary to meet performance standards on training dives?

 

[DevonDiver]

This is written out of ignorance. You haven't done the training to say that.

Why ascribe your motives to others? You want equivalency without actually earning it. You're only deceiving yourself when you do.

So, the consistency is not "fictitious". By your own words you've identified the real problem in accepting wreck as equal to full cave.

Would that include you?

The cave community and especially the NSS-CDS has resisted the tendency to include everyone who wants to be an instructor as such. That's not an accident but a commitment to excellence. While many non NSS-CEDS instructors may resent that, it's obviously true. You can try to tear down the NSS-CDS as @DevonDiver is trying to do to bring it down to his level: OR THEY CAN EMULATE THEIR SUCCESS. It will take time and a similar commitment to excellence, but their's is a tradition to copy. No, I'm not an NSS-CDS instructor, but I know the real deal when I see it. Call that elitism if you want, but why is it a bad thing to ID the truly elite? Leave the jealousy and pettiness behind and accept that they've done a superior job in teaching. It's not that you're bad: it's just that they are exceptional. Of course, without the humility to accept reality, you really can't begin to copy it.


We get that from our instructors. Again, why isn't this true for wreck?

Pete, you wouldnt even fit through the restrictions on the wrecks here. Not really interested to debate with you at all, as you don't read or are incapable of understanding points because you leap into insecure assumptions to every post.

I keep blocking you, as was agreed I could, why are you still visible and engaging me?

 

[tursiops]

As for agencies teaching differently, lets use an example: RAID recreational wreck teaches 6 different tie-off techniques. Illustrated in the manual and demanded practiced in-water by training standards. How many are illustrated in the PADI Wreck Diver manual and necessary to meet performance standards on training dives?

I think you have quite sufficiently flogged your strawhorse to death. Get over it.
PADI is not a wreck penetration course. It is unfair to denigrate it on those terms.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, you wouldnt even fit through the restrictions on the wrecks here.

Wow. More insults. You would be surprised at what I fit through, but you would rather demean someone who disagrees with you than address the valid points I have raised. I haven't demeaned you in any of this discussion and don't intend to.

Not really interested to debate with you at all,

Obviously. Devon, you don't debate or discuss concepts... you just keep casting aspersions instead with anyone who deigns to disagree with you. This is a community filled with all kinds of divers. Not everyone has a glowing opinion of your skills and self-professed prowess. Instead of just hating us for not worshiping you, take a look in the mirror and figure out why. Perhaps you'll have even better success promoting your services here if you took the chip off of your shoulder.

I think what he is saying is that wreck instructors suck, except for him.

Agreed. Even worse, it seems that he's trying to set himself as an equal with the likes of Lamar Hires, @Capt Jim Wyatt, and others when he's only been teaching in this century. That doesn't mean we don't have some very talented young instructors, but they learned how from the veterans in our sport. You don't become an NSS-CDS instructor easily. It takes serious discipline, amazing skills, a lot of mentoring dedication and lots of patience. That might frustrate some instructors who feel they deserve the same reputation immediately but it is what it is. I believe Devon is mostly self-taught and invented, but I could be wrong. FWIW, there's nothing wrong with that. Again, it is what it is and it's not the equivalent of an NSS-CDS instructor in my eyes.

I have penetrated wrecks and I can do so because there little or no regulation.

Didiots (Diving Idiots) also dive into caves all the time with absolutely no training and with all-too-often tragic results. Sometimes, they are rescued/led out by cavers dedicated to keeping our springs open and don't want to read about another fatality. Why do we do this? We're trained to care and to honor limits from the very beginning by some very dedicated and trusted instructors. We absolutely have no respect for those who don't honor these limits. Some people want to couch this as elitism and again: what's the real issue with this? If you want our respect, you'll have to earn it. Don't hate us because we have high standards and don't think you measure up to them.