Do cave divers need wreck training?

[DevonDiver]

I think you have quite sufficiently flogged your strawhorse to death. Get over it.
PADI is not a wreck penetration course. It is unfair to denigrate it on those terms.

And yet...

PADI Wreck Diver manual, page 31, 'Wreck Penetration'.

 

[fish149]

$0.02

Just wanted to get mine in...

 

[oldschoolto]

I can't help myself... If you cavers are "ALL" so great... Why all the politics in cave country... Why all the back stabbing and smack talk around cave diving clicks...
I think you guys have been drinking so much kool-aid.. You believe your own Bull$hit... Nothing like being a cocky clown to set yourself up for the crap to blow up in your face..

Jim..

 

[tursiops]

And yet...

View attachment 452105

PADI Wreck Diver manual, page 31, 'Wreck Penetration'.

Notice it says, "Practice the techniques for safe, limited wreck penetration" not practice wreck penetration. If you're not sure what the difference is, your wreck-instructor credentials are suspect. By the way, that is not the current manual you are quoting from. The current manual says:
"The following discussion covers wreck penetration equipment, techniques and limits suitable for recreational divers. More involved wreck penetration diving requires training in technical, research or commercial diving and is beyond the scope of this course. Do not exceed the limits of your training." p32

 

[DevonDiver]

Notice it says, "Practice the techniques for safe, limited wreck penetration" not practice wreck penetration. If you're not sure what the difference is, your wreck-instructor credentials are suspect. By the way, that is not the current manual you are quoting from. The current manual says:
"The following discussion covers wreck penetration equipment, techniques and limits suitable for recreational divers. More involved wreck penetration diving requires training in technical, research or commercial diving and is beyond the scope of this course. Do not exceed the limits of your training." p32

The limits of that training are clearly laid out in the manual. I quote:

1. Edge of light zone
2. Linear distance of 40m/130ft
3. One-third of air supply
4. Space to narrow for two divers to pass together.

These limits are identical to cavern training and defined as recreational overhead environment diving.

Page 37, Recreational Penetration and Technical Penetration.

The manual quite clearly states that these recreational wreck limits, as taught on the course, "sprang from cavern diving".

Nobody claims that the course is a technical level course. Again, that's repeatedly and clearly stated.

Nonetheless, the manual, as quoted before, clearly says the training is appropriate for recreational wreck penetration.

That's always been my point. Same penetration limits as cavern, but woefully less training, vastly lower instructor requirements and significantly less dedicated penetration time on the course (or none, if desired).

The manual quoted is version 2.02. This is the manual currently available here in the Philippines as supplied from PADI.

 

[DevonDiver]

... If you FLORIDA cavers are "ALL" so great... Why all the politics in cave country... Why all ..

Let's get this right, for the sake of fairness...have amended your post.

I don't see the same attitudes apparant in other global cave communities.

 

[tursiops]

The limits of that training are clearly laid out in the manual. I quote:

1. Edge of light zone
2. Linear distance of 40m/130ft
3. One-third of air supply
4. Space to narrow for two divers to pass together.

These limits are identical to cavern training and defined as recreational overhead environment diving. View attachment 452108

Page 37, Recreational Penetration and Technical Penetration.

The manual quite clearly states that these recreational wreck limits, as taught on the course, "sprang from cavern diving".

Nobody claims that the course is a technical level course. Again, that's repeatedly and clearly stated.

Nonetheless, the manual, as quoted before, clearly says the training is appropriate for recreational wreck penetration.

That's always been my point. Same penetration limits as cavern, but woefully less training, vastly lower instructor requirements and significantly less dedicated penetration time on the course (or none, if desired).

The manual quoted is version 2.02. This is the manual currently available here in the Philippines as supplied from PADI.

Maybe you should also point out that PADI cavern training requires three dives in the cavern zone. PADI wreck training allows one optional penetration dive. It is a lesser course, with lesser instructor credentials, and is mainly about HOW to do a wreck penetration dive rather than actually DOING a wreck penetration dive.

 

[The Chairman]

I can't help myself...

Yeah, we get that. Try some circumspection and discipline.

Why all the back stabbing and smack talk

You mean, like what you're doing right here? How ironic that you're doing the very thing you accuse others of doing? No need to transfer your idiosyncrasies to others. We'll always have people like you trying to tear down other's reputation to build their own. Here, in cave country, in Mexico and even the Philippines. You won't see the great instructors doing that though: only the wannabes. The very people who thirst for the respect that they haven't earned are quick to cast stones, to demean and insult others who have succeeded. Like the GI3 wannabes, they are far, far more vocal than the ones who went before them. At least GI3 had the dives to support his ego, most of his 'fans' do not. Dive and let dive. If you want the respect given to the NSS-CDS then start acting like them and stop insulting everyone else. You don't see them tearing anyone down to make themselves look better. No, I'm not an NSS-CDS instructor. Maybe one day if/when I'm ready. It's certainly my opinion that they are a breed apart from the other tech instructors. Sorry if that upsets you, but you belittling them doesn't help to change my mind. We've all earned our reputations good, bad or neutral... they've just earned a far better one from me.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't see the same attitudes apparant in other global cave communities.

I disagree. There are many in Mexico that are just as enamored with safety and providing the ultimate in cave training, maintaining discipline and not letting ego set your limits. I'm not sure why you find that a horrible attitude to have. There are probably others elsewhere, but I haven't been there to see them dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

As a community, cave divers recognize uncompromising protocols that safeguard against human-factor failures in decision making and risk assessment/management. They always run line... and the prudence of that practice is accepted regardless of the cavern/cave undertaken.

In contrast, the wreck community accepts a muppet-show free-for-all approach, whereby any self-designated 'expert' can make or break the 'rules' as they see fit, or choose to interpret.

"Thats not an overhead environment penetration, that's a 'swim-through'..."

"That's a 'safe wreck', no guideline is necessary".

This is why cave divers don't respect wreck training, instructors and divers.

Sadly, its easy to tar everyone with the same brush.

I will ask you the same question I asked earlier to someone else: would you run line during the the first 3 minutes of this video?