Do cave divers need wreck training?

[kensuf]

admittedly, I haven't had my ear to the ground much in recent years. Any idea what this shift is attributed to?

Aging population (physical ailments), complacency (not running jumps), normalization of deviance (poor gas planning), too far too fast (extreme dive plan).

 

[boulderjohn]

Aging population (physical ailments), complacency (not running jumps), normalization of deviance (poor gas planning), too far too fast (extreme dive plan).

I am thinking back to the ones I have mentioned in this thread and some others. I think Ken's list can be said to cover them for the most part, but I want to add a little more specificity that covers several of them.

Things can go bad during any dive, and people are trained to deal with those emergencies. It could be a navigation error, a siltout, an equipment problem--anything. Dealing with those emergencies requires time, and time is provided by the gas you breathe. That is why you are always supposed to carry redundant gas and an ample reserve. In a dive with no emergencies, you should be exiting the cave with a lot of gas.

In 5 of the recent cases I am thinking of, the divers had a problem deep in a cave, solved it, and then did not have enough gas to complete the exit. In 1 case (possibly 2), the diver simply did not bring enough gas to deal with the situation, a shocking error for highly experienced divers (normalization of deviance). In the other cases, we cannot be sure how much gas was needed.

The next problem is that in 4 of those cases, the divers were alone. Two started the dives solo, and and 2 had separations because of the problem.

 

[kensuf]

I want to add something to this thread.

Two cave instructors have weighed in on this topic and been relatively polite, one of them clearly said that the two environments are different and need appropriate training for both. The other cave instructor is also an advanced wreck instructor, and he clearly stated that cave divers have an edge on the basic skills, but he also said "the wreck diving specific hazards need to be covered for a cave diver conducting wreck dives."

One of the cave instructors has over 12 years of active cave instruction and while the other is a "newbie", he has been actively teaching cave diving for 6 years and has been an active cave diver with over 15 years of experience doing long penetration / deep dives. I would contend that the two cave instructors are the best qualified to debate whether or not cave trained divers are properly prepared for wreck penetrations. At no point did they say categorically that cave divers were prepared for wreck diving, and both of them were very polite and didn't degrade to name calling.

Where I'm getting at is let's keep the debate professional guys, skip the name calling and chest thumping.

 

[oldschoolto]

I'm sorry and apologize to anyone that was offend by my posts... I KNOW how hard some cavers train... And I do respect that...

Jim.,..

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Great points everyone! It seems to me that a lot of times wreck fatalities are caused by factors that would not be present in a cave. Rousey's are dead because one of them got buried under a collapsing book shelf. John Ormsby died inside Andria Doria because of cable entanglement. Collapsing furniture and falling cables ... why would any one cover these during a Cave course? From what I have read in "Shadow Divers" and "Deep Descent," these three fatalities were all cave divers who felt that knowing caves means knowing wrecks.

I have ZERO experience with overheads be they caves or wrecks so please take my thoughts for what they are worth and ... continue

 

[oldschoolto]

The minute you think you are able to do anything... The minute you think you're the best of the best watch out.. Because you're in trouble...

The key to living along time and doing highly risky $hit is staying humble..

Jim....

 

[boulderjohn]

Great points everyone! It seems to me that a lot of times wreck fatalities are caused by factors that would not be present in a cave. Rousey's are dead because one of them got buried under a collapsing book shelf. John Ormsby died inside Andria Doria because of cable entanglement. Collapsing furniture and falling cables ... why would any one cover these during a Cave course? From what I have read in "Shadow Divers" and "Deep Descent," these three fatalities were all cave divers who felt that knowing caves means knowing wrecks.

I have ZERO experience with overheads be they caves or wrecks so please take my thoughts for what they are worth and ... continue

John Ormsby was not a cave diver--IIRC, he was really not a highly experienced diver at all.

The Rouses did not die because of the collapse on Chrissy, although it was a contributing factor. They both emerged from the wreck OK. They died because in their extreme narcosis at that depth, they did not know where to find the decompression gases where they had stowed them. They made an unsafe ascent because of that and died of DCS.

The rest of what you wrote is accurate--wreck diving does have inherent risks not found in cave diving, and cave divers should be trained on them when attempting advanced wreck penetrations.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have ZERO experience with overheads be they caves or wrecks so please take my thoughts for what they are worth and ... continue

Not many days ago I ran into a post on FaceBook in which several divers with minimal to no training in cave diving, wreck diving, or decompression diving were talking about their plans to dive the Andrea Doria as they could get through the appropriate decompression courses. I think that sort of "too much too soon" attitude contributes to problems like this.

 

[tomfcrist]

Rousey's are dead because one of them got buried under a collapsing book shelf. John Ormsby died inside Andria Doria because of cable entanglement.

Not being critical, but you have your info twisted here a bit.

As I stated before, the Rouseys didn’t die because of the collapsing shelf...they died because they were too narced to find their stages/deco bottles...essentially forcing them to blow off an hour plus of deco obligation.

Ormsby died because he panicked.

Those incidents had nothing to do with being trained properly for cave and/or technical wreck diving. They had to do with panic in adverse situations on relatively deep dives.

 

[oldschoolto]

Not being critical, but you have your info twisted here a bit.

As I stated before, the Rouseys didn’t die because of the collapsing shelf...they died because they were too narced to find their stages/deco bottles...essentially forcing them to blow off an hour plus of deco obligation.

Ormsby died because he panicked.

Those incidents had nothing to do with being trained properly for cave and/or technical wreck diving. They had to do with panic in adverse situations on relatively deep dives.

Sounds like people dying because they thought they were smarter than the average bear.. Stay humble...

Jim..