Do cave divers need wreck training?

[oldschoolto]

I'm knocking on 45 years... Never been hurt... I have over to 1,800 skydives, never been hurt... I've got 100's of hours flying off a 1300' grass strip at max gross hauling jumpers in my C-182 and never hurt my airplane or anyone... I have 2 million miles of safe driving up and down the northeast in a tractor trailer truck... But, I don't have a cave card... LOL

Jim....

 

[boulderjohn]

I've watch many a thread here on SB about the greatness of cavers and how they are able to dive "ANY" wreck with their cave card... I've heard tell that a cavern card is better then any wreck training... Like I said.. If you guys are so good, Why you getting killed in the caves... Maybe, Just maybe your egos are writing checks that your a$$ can't cash...

I have been very active on ScubaBoard for nearly 14 years, and I don't recall ever seeing a single post that said anything like that. As I indicated earlier, I do more wrecks than caves, so I am very much in both worlds, and I have never seen the attitude you describe mentioned anywhere in any context. You appear to be making up an enemy, because I don't believe your enemy exists.

I have to admit that I only been in one cave since I helped recover the body of a friend of mine. That man was a far, far better trained and experienced diver than I, but he was attempting a dive beyond the ability of most people even to imagine, let alone perform. I still feel horror trying to imagine what his last moments must have been like.

With that in mind, I want to make a comment about what you wrote. I want to be careful about it, though. In ScubaBoard, we say you must direct comments at what people write rather than at the person who wrote it. While thinking about the death of my friend while reading what you wrote, I would just like to say that what you wrote was among the most vile, repugnant, repulsive, and disgusting things I have read in my 14 years on ScubaBoard. It is making me feel physically ill.

 

[oldschoolto]

Here is one of the few people who actively teaches both disciplines. I would trust him over any wreck instructor who doesn't teach cave, including Chatterton

A properly trained cave diver has all the skills needed to do wreck penetrations. The wreck diving specific hazards need to be covered for a cave diver conducting wreck dives.

jim...

 

[Mark IV]

... Like I said.. If you guys are so good, Why you getting killed in the caves... Maybe, Just maybe your egos are writing checks that your a$$ can't cash....

To be fair here, as I've always understood (and was even mentioned in The Chairman's video posted earlier) it generally isn't certified cave divers that are dying in droves in the caves, as much as it is regular divers going into them without the proper training and equipment. So those guys weren't cave divers (despite dying in one)
I was a PADi and IANTD instructor, and NACD full cave diver,down in the Yucatan for a decade+, and I believe I heard about fewer cave diving fatalities in that time, than I did about open water divers dying (or getting real bent).
And i don't have a dog in this cave-vs-wreck diver fight, and surely don't think cave divers walk on water, but in my experience, all cave divers I ever crossed paths with were very careful, conscientious divers. I would assume the same from wreck divers, but that isn't what I always hear or read.

 

[PfcAJ]

it generally isn't certified cave divers that are dying in droves in the caves, as much as it is regular divers going into them without the proper training and equipment. So those guys weren't cave divers (despite dying in one)

Unfortunately that’s not really the case as of the past 10 years to so.

 

[Mark IV]

Unfortunately that’s not really the case as of the past 10 years to so.

admittedly, I haven't had my ear to the ground much in recent years. Any idea what this shift is attributed to?

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Why not get both?

 

[DevonDiver]

It appears that would a "no", but pretty impressive resume,nonetheless.
Andy Davis | Sidemount Technical Wreck Diving Instructor | Philippines

I've been offered cave instructor training, but passed on it because:

1. No caves near me to enable the opportunity to dive frequently enough (i.e. near-daily) to achieve the level of proficiency that I consider a minimum.

2. My interest is wrecks, and has been for 27 years. I'm busy doing that to a high level as a daily job.

3. I don't have small balls, so I don't need to collect trivial cards for the bragging rights online. I leave that to the pot-bellied desk-dwellers whose diving doesn't speak for itself.

I've also been invited on 'proper' exploratory cave expeditions in SE Asia, by highly reputable exploratory-grade cavers who I've taught (i.e. sidemount, technical wreck or mixed gas). As per my earlier comments in this thread, I believe that the cave and wreck environments demand specific education - so I refused. Although I felt very honoured and complimented to be asked.

Obviously, I haven't trained with NSS-CDS because:

1. I'm not American.
2. I don't live or dive in America.
3. I have no plans to live or dive in America.
4. NSS-CDS is an American national organisation.

I thought it was common knowledge that I am British and live in the Philippines...

What I HAVE done is:

1. Trained NSS-CDS qualified divers and instructors, particularly in sidemount and wrecks.

2. Taken training, or done mutual skill exchange, with very high level cave instructors from a myriad of American, European and Australasian cave organizations.

 

[DevonDiver]

Why not get both?

The prudent ones do.

They put ego aside and realise there's something valuable to be learned.

 

[tomfcrist]

I've never been bent.

Brave man.