Do cave divers need wreck training?

[tomfcrist]

Sounds like people dying because they thought they were smarter than the average bear.. Stay humble...

Jim..

I don’t know if it’s because they thought they were smart...my guess is they thought they could get away with a knowingly piss poor plan.

That’s not a problem with highly experienced cave and wreck divers though.. :sarcasm:

 

[oldschoolto]

I don’t know if it’s because they thought they were smart...my guess is they thought they could get away with a knowingly piss poor plan.

That’s not a problem with highly experienced cave and wreck divers though.. :sarcasm:

But that's what happens when you think you're that good.. I don't need all that gas ... I got a CCR... I got a scooter.. I don't need all these cutting tools..

Jim...

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

I understand that Rousey's were able to come out of the collapsed book shelf situation but the time it took for the father to free the son from under the shelf meant that they were way out of their planned schedule. The decompression time accumulated in the process was too much to complete on back gas that they had and deco-bottles were already lost. Now my understanding of this is based on "Shadow Divers." I have not read "The Last Dive" so is there something else to it that I am missing?

As for John Ormsby, I have searched for his diving background and his cave diving credentials are not listed anywhere. His configuration is described as being
typical of Florida cave divers in the following words.

“Gary Gentile remembers that Ormsby’s belt looked like a carpenters tool belt. A hammer, an adjustable wrench, a crowbar, and pliers were slung from the spring gated snap hooks that hung from his belt. This kind of configuration was popular with Florida Cave divers, who were responsible for most technical diving configurations in the Sunshine state. But it was not 6the same in the cold depths of the Northeast. Wreck divers who frequent the Doria, call the snaps suicide clips.

In Florida there was little chance of “danglies” such as Ormsbys snap hooks or tools, snagging the smooth limestone walls of an underwater cave, but in the dark, confining passages of a wreck, all the twisted and collapsed steel seems to almost reach out and grab you. Streamlining your gear and minimizing your chance of snagging yourself with danglies is foremost in Doria divers mind.” (Page 14, Deep Descent)

My exposure to cave divers is limited to UTD and GUE and what is being described above would be a huge NO NO within that crowd. Not sure how other cavers would feel about this being "typical."

 

[tomfcrist]

But that's what happens when you think you're that good.. I don't need all that gas ... I got a CCR... I got a scooter.. I don't need all these cutting tools..

Jim...

No doubt...I don’t need bailout...it’s just a 25’dive.

 

[tomfcrist]

Sinbad,

This is why reading theatrical books is probably not the best way to analyze mishaps.

 

[kensuf]

I understand that Rousey's were able to come out of the collapsed book shelf situation but the time it took for the father to free the son from under the shelf meant that they were way out of their planned schedule. The decompression time accumulated in the process was too much to complete on back gas that they had and deco-bottles were already lost. Now my understanding of this is based on "Shadow Divers." I have not read "The Last Dive" so is there something else to it that I am missing?

As for John Ormsby, I have searched for his diving background and his cave diving credentials are not listed anywhere. His configuration is described as being
typical of Florida cave divers in the following words.

“Gary Gentile remembers that Ormsby’s belt looked like a carpenters tool belt. A hammer, an adjustable wrench, a crowbar, and pliers were slung from the spring gated snap hooks that hung from his belt. This kind of configuration was popular with Florida Cave divers, who were responsible for most technical diving configurations in the Sunshine state. But it was not 6the same in the cold depths of the Northeast. Wreck divers who frequent the Doria, call the snaps suicide clips.

In Florida there was little chance of “danglies” such as Ormsbys snap hooks or tools, snagging the smooth limestone walls of an underwater cave, but in the dark, confining passages of a wreck, all the twisted and collapsed steel seems to almost reach out and grab you. Streamlining your gear and minimizing your chance of snagging yourself with danglies is foremost in Doria divers mind.” (Page 14, Deep Descent)

My exposure to cave divers is limited to UTD and GUE and what is being described above would be a huge NO NO within that crowd. Not sure how other cavers would feel about this being "typical."

What Ormsby did is not typical of cave divers. Cave divers don't have suicide clips attached to their bodies for them to clip tools onto. Danglies will get caught on things.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Sinbad,

This is why reading theatrical books is probably not the best way to analyze mishaps.

Agreed in 100% but what other sources would you recommend?

 

[The Chairman]

“Gary Gentile remembers that Ormsby’s belt looked like a carpenters tool belt. A hammer, an adjustable wrench, a crowbar, and pliers were slung from the spring gated snap hooks that hung from his belt. This kind of configuration was popular with Florida Cave divers, who were responsible for most technical diving configurations in the Sunshine state. But it was not 6the same in the cold depths of the Northeast. Wreck divers who frequent the Doria, call the snaps suicide clips.

Not only is this "not popular" with Florida Cave divers, I have never seen this at all. I live here and have dove here for a long, long time and have been in the cave community since about the turn of the century. While suicide clips have been used by some side mounters, they are few and far between. We simply hate them down here.

Agreed in 100%! But what other sources would you recommend?

Take a cave class. Garner some experience. Ignorance is curable. That, or clue in the posters who have been there and done that. Gentile is not an instructor, much less a cave instructor. I'm not sure he's cave trained.

You have people speculating on what they think is true. They're assuming, guessing and speaking out of ignorance because they haven't taken the course. Oh, they all have their reasons. Some can't be bothered. Some suggest that you have to have small balls to proceed with training. They don't have the creds so they besmirch those that do. They accuse the cavers of having egos when they are the ones acting out.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Take a cave class. Garner some experience. Ignorance is curable. That, or clue in the posters who have been there and done that. Gentile is not an instructor, much less a cave instructor. I'm not sure he's cave trained..

I am not talking about the procedures of cave or wreck. A cave diving class or even a manual will address that part. While asking for sources, I am interested in details (technical as well as legal) behind wreck diving incidents and accidents. This is one area where magazines such as Scuba Diver etc can really add substance to their publications. Instead of fictitious and anonymous "scenarios" if they could do some investigative journalism in diving fatalities and back it up with real world interviews, statements and court documents then that is the kind of published source that I would make my life easy. In the absence of that, we have the "mass market paperback" which is written like an entertainment novel with a lot of creative freedoms. Target audience is mainstream consumer instead of divers who are looking to do those types of dives.

 

[tomfcrist]

Agreed in 100% but what other sources would you recommend?

Now that netdoc has finished ranting...

I would suggest USCG accident reports, witness statements or just talking to someone who was actually there.

Realize that everything in a book is exaggerated and embellished upon.