Diving without problems - Is it possible?

[H2Andy]

That is a terrifying statement from an instructor.

but true

people who reassure you all will be well are usually trying to sell you something,
or trying to convince you of doing something that may be against your best
personal interest if you actually think about the risks involved (don't worry
about going into combat... if you use your training and skills, you'll be ok ...
well ... most of the time, yes ... but .... crap happens)

look, you can't make diving risk-free. in fact, you can't make anything risk free.

you can lessen the odds of something happening to you, or increase the odds
of you surviving if something does happen to you, but the risks are still there

i happen to think the risk is acceptable. and, as everybody says,
safety is an acceptable level of risk.

 

[rried]

After years of diving I can say the most serious incident I've experienced was slipping on the bathroom floor while cleaning my gear and breaking my toe after diving last weekend. I don't know what was worse, the pain, or my wife laughing at me.

 

[usmc4x4]

but true

people who reassure you all will be well are usually trying to sell you something,
or trying to convince you of doing something that may be against your best
personal interest if you actually think about the risks involved (don't worry
about going into combat... if you use your training and skills, you'll be ok ...
well ... most of the time, yes ... but .... crap happens)

look, you can't make diving risk-free. in fact, you can't make anything risk free.

you can lessen the odds of something happening to you, or increase the odds
of you surviving if something does happen to you, but the risks are still there

i happen to think the risk is acceptable. and, as everybody says,
safety is an acceptable level of risk.

Did you just compare the risks of diving to combat? Thats hardly an apporpriate comparison. (Kind of a button for me) That is comparing an "activity" where an opposing force is purposefully trying to harm you. Most harm incurred while diving can be avoided, the risk is with the diver, not the activity its self. JMHO.

 

[KrisB]

Did you just compare the risks of diving to combat? Thats hardly an apporpriate comparison. (Kind of a button for me) That is comparing an "activity" where an opposing force is purposefully trying to harm you. Most harm incurred while diving can be avoided, the risk is with the diver, not the activity its self. JMHO.

usmc4x4 -- you're missing the point (and trying to pick a fight, now).

There is enough about diving that either a) we can't control or b) we don't know about to make it uncontrollable. And almost any one of those alone can kill you.

Like NDL's and deco stops. They're not foolproof -- there are people that dive well within the NDL's, ascend at a safe speed and still get bent... despite having done that or similar dives regularly for the past several years.

Or narcosis-induced effects... for instance, I was told a story about an individual on a "deep" (100') training dive for his AOW who, when it was his turn to demonstrate some skill, promptly removed his mask and regulator and yelled "I'm freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" -- the instructor ascended with him, having replaced the regulator quickly. The near-victim had no recollection of the event and blamed the instructor for his not having his mask on. Now tell me: how could that have been avoided?

Those are just two physiological situations that affect each and every diver on each and every dive (sometimes not noticeable, othertimes very noticeable) -- and either could kill you.

If the narc'd individual had not had the instructor around (or a buddy with similar presence of mind), he likely would have drowned... and nothing he could have done would have saved him, given the narcosis.

The bottom line is, as with everything else in life: you can do everything right, and still end up getting hurt. You can eat healthy all your life, and still die of a cholesterol-induced heart attack at 35 years of age... it's all about mitigated risk.

 

[usmc4x4]

usmc4x4 -- you're missing the point (and trying to pick a fight, now).

There is enough about diving that either a) we can't control or b) we don't know about to make it uncontrollable. And almost any one of those alone can kill you.

Like NDL's and deco stops. They're not foolproof -- there are people that dive well within the NDL's, ascend at a safe speed and still get bent... despite having done that or similar dives regularly for the past several years.

Or narcosis-induced effects... for instance, I was told a story about an individual on a "deep" (100') training dive for his AOW who, when it was his turn to demonstrate some skill, promptly removed his mask and regulator and yelled "I'm freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" -- the instructor ascended with him, having replaced the regulator quickly. The near-victim had no recollection of the event and blamed the instructor for his not having his mask on. Now tell me: how could that have been avoided?

Those are just two physiological situations that affect each and every diver on each and every dive (sometimes not noticeable, othertimes very noticeable) -- and either could kill you.

If the narc'd individual had not had the instructor around (or a buddy with similar presence of mind), he likely would have drowned... and nothing he could have done would have saved him, given the narcosis.

The bottom line is, as with everything else in life: you can do everything right, and still end up getting hurt. You can eat healthy all your life, and still die of a cholesterol-induced heart attack at 35 years of age... it's all about mitigated risk.

I'm not picking a fight, I appears to me that you have decided to take two sides of this discussion as well as inject wild rare cases of mishaps to a regular question.

Originally Posted by KrisB
that's exactly what dumpsterDiver said... if you have good training, etc., you're SAFER diving than driving to the dive shop!

Is it possible to affect your own safety or not? I can't seem to find your stance. Mine is clearly stated.

The post is not about the wildest hairbrained stuff you have seen/heard happening while diving. Its about wether or not it is possible to dive long term and avoid a near death incident. My point was yes this can be done with proper training and keeping your wits about you. GRANTED you can not control everything when diving, but the same applies to everything else in life. You can count freak accidents as reasons why diving isn't safe, but then again its possible my airbag on my jeep could deploy out of no where and cause a fatal accident (thats called irony) so does that mean that driving can't be accomplished in a safe manner over a long period of time.

I'm done....

 

[Lake Mead Tony]

I have been diving since 1971 and only had a few minor problens like O-rings and a few freeflows, and I started out with a US divers double hose and may west BC with a CO2 backup.

 

[H2Andy]

Did you just compare the risks of diving to combat? Thats hardly an apporpriate comparison. (Kind of a button for me)

it'd be an idiotic comparison

no, what i am saying is that there are many situations (with various degrees of
risk involved) in which people will tell you "training will get you through, don't worry"
and that is not a true statement.

it's true most of the time, but you can't eliminate all risk from any activity. some
activities ( combat) are, of course, inherently more dangerous than others (diving),
and the risks are greater.

Most harm incurred while diving can be avoided, the risk is with the diver, not the activity its self. JMHO.

most, yes. all of it? no. you're basically saying that the diver can always
control the risk ("the risk is with the diver"). from a basic point of view,
any time you are in an alien environment like the, sea on life-support, there
are quite a few things that the diver can't control.

i think we basically agree, though. the risks are minimal, and can be managed
reasonably well. but the risks are still there, and sometimes, what happens is
out of your control.

 

[KrisB]

I'm not picking a fight, I appears to me that you have decided to take two sides of this discussion as well as inject wild rare cases of mishaps to a regular question.

Is it possible to affect your own safety or not? I can't seem to find your stance. Mine is clearly stated.

The post is not about the wildest hairbrained stuff you have seen/heard happening while diving. Its about wether or not it is possible to dive long term and avoid a near death incident. My point was yes this can be done with proper training and keeping your wits about you. GRANTED you can not control everything when diving, but the same applies to everything else in life. You can count freak accidents as reasons why diving isn't safe, but then again its possible my airbag on my jeep could deploy out of no where and cause a fatal accident (thats called irony) so does that mean that driving can't be accomplished in a safe manner over a long period of time.

I'm done....

The stance *you* appeared to take is that, given good training, gear, etc.; *all* accidents were avoidable.

H2Andy said it best:

most, yes. all of it? no. you're basically saying that the diver can always control the risk ("the risk is with the diver"). from a basic point of view, any time you are in an alien environment like the, sea on life-support, there are quite a few things that the diver can't control.

My examples were of things that can happen to *any* diver without warning. They aren't terribly "wild" nor "rare" -- as soon as you start descending, you begin to suffer from Nitrogen Narcosis to one degree or another. How it affects you today is different from how it will affect you tomorrow, or how it affected you yesterday. No amount of training can completely prepare you for that, in a way that can be guaranteed to keep you alive.

The physiological possibility of getting bent even when following the most conservative of rules exists also... and nobody has figured out why.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Yes those are the points I was trying to make: not all risks are controllable and you might not always be "fine" even if you try to follow the rules.

Certainly responding appropriately to a crisis will vastly improve your odds of being able to tell another "dive story", but it sure isn't a guarantee.

I've been in diving situations where I relied upon experience, muscle, luck and probably my mother's prayers to get me (or a buddy) safely through them, but I have also seen the Coast Guard helicopter take my buddy off the boat. I've recovered the body of an extremely experienced diver who got his skull split by a boat propellor. I've unsuccesfully performed CPR on a young diver who had puke in his eyeballs and had just a few whiskers on his chin, as I can unfortunately recall.

And I've seen other diving deaths, injuries and seen many people have close calls. These experiences impact my perspective of the sport.

The ocean (and diving) can be dangerous and if you don't treat it with a little fear and a lot of respect, you're much braver than I.

 

[Dawktah]

I'm new to diving and agree with the consensus. Dive your plan, dive within your limits. I develop trust based on "what" it is, meaning I have my own equipment and don't trust rental. Soon to buy my own tanks since there is a potential problem in that realm. So far no problems that I did not quickly recognize and never felt was an emergency. Descended with snorkel, only inches below surface and quickly switched. During Underwater photography portion of AOW specialty, saw a ray below, brought it to attention of DM, he said "go get it" so I went out of proper descent sequence.

Read, read and read some more. My soon to be wife (in 30 days) spent our entire Memorial day weekend working on buoyancy. Turns out the LDS for November trip had both of us underweighted. We both have two piece 3mm suits and they issued us weight as if we had 3mm one piece. They insisted _they_ were right, but now we know _exactly_ how much weight we need with an Al 80 at 500 psi.