Diving Performance - Beyond Drag (article Series And Discussion)

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I would like to see it rigged, ready to don.
T

thanks, very helpful.
I was looking at those fins online. Seemed to fit the descriptions of an ideal fin at a good price point.
I've been diving splits since my first dive trip in warm water in 2000, twin jets I think. I find them very easy to dive with, and I can perform a good helicopter and back water with them. I am interested in some of the points you mentioned about the full pocket fins.
How do these fins handle turns and backwater? Or is the main advantage better speed?
Thanks
They turn and helicopter fine. Never tried to back kick. A big plus to me is how full foot fins travel. Smaller, lighter and no stinky wet booties in my suitcase for the flight home.

Like you said, price point is good. Your location is listed as NYC. Leisurepro has them in stock so you can try them on to check the fit. I also know 2 people with Atomic Full Foot split fins that are very happy.
 
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They turn and helicopter fine. Never tried to back kick. A big plus to me is how full foot fins travel. Smaller, lighter and no stinky wet booties in my suitcase for the flight home.

Like you said, price point is good. Your location is listed as NYC. Leisurepro has them in stock so you can try them on to check the fit. I also know 2 people with Atomic Full Foot split fins that are very happy.
Thanks, I'll swing by to check them out.
 
Your whole post made my point. You are trying to do things that, let me say it again, most other divers don't want to do. This behavior will only be the norm if you convince other people. So far you simply haven't been very convincing.
I've been thinking about this some. Why was I not convincing? There are probably many parts to this and it should be noted that some people are convinced that better swimming performance can lead to better dives and that this goal is worth pursuing. Obviously, others are not convinced.

There was a lot of resistence to my "requirements". I think that the term may have gotten distorted in translation from engineer to diver. The engineering process begins with "requirements". The requirements define what the goal of the design is to accomplish. Does it mean that no one should dive without meeting these requirements. No, it does not mean that. It means that a system I design to those requirements should be able to demonstrate compliance to those requirements. If not the design failed to achieve the intended goal for the hardware. I defined my requirements in terms of the speeds that are statistically driven by ocean conditions. Perhaps I needed to spend more time talking about why I wanted to do this aside from general safety and a claim that "it just makes sense".

While not everyone, I think it is true that most people who are interested in diving are initially drawn to it because of a desire for exploration and adventure. I also think one of the reasons that the attrition rate among new divers is so high is that they eventually learn that scuba diving is not an cost effective activity to satisfy that urge for exploration. The general lack of mobility leaves divers, in many cases, slaved to a dive boat for access to the ocean and that means you go where the dive boat goes. For some, and perhaps many, that is fine. That's what they want, they want the dive to be easy and they are willing customers for a guided tour. But this type of tour bus experience will not do much for quenching one's appetite for exploration, as you are unlikely to discover anything new. You will see what thousands of others have seen before you and it may be nice, but it is not very adventuresome.

If you want adventure, you need to get your own boat. Now, you are not talking about a few thousand dollars for dive gear to explore the ocean, you are adding anywhere from about $5k for a used small minimalist boat to $120k for a larger sized new boat that you can stay on, with the average boat probably falling in the $20k to $30k range. Then there are the costs for maintaining and operating a boat. Those costs usually match the initial purchase price over a typical time of ownership. In the end, it gets too expensive and people decide to go hiking or camping instead.

Adventure and exploration demand a certain level of autonomy of the diver. One can't be adventuresome while being slaved to a dive boat operator. My "requirements" were designed to reach what I thought would achieve that needed level of autonomy in the ocean, that a diver can be liberated from the dive boat operator. They can do a lot of dives without the dive boat at all and in the cases where a dive boat is still used, the scope of operations gives the diver a wide range of explorable territory (A diver could potentially range several miles if desired).

On top of this, the improved mobility can add certain elements of safety to just being in the ocean, so it is good from that perspective as well.

For those to want the tour bus experience, that's fine. The goal of those operations is to try to show you a nice dive spot that will have easy diving conditions. You probably will not have to swim much. In that case, this equipment will not do a whole lot for you and I can see why that kind of diver would not want to pay extra for the added capability that they will not use.

I have known people who just dropped of the back of the boat, went to the bottom and sat there looking around until they got board, and then back up to the boat. They had no need for swimming performance because they really didn't swim at all. They eventually quit diving.

Some people keep diving interesting by becoming photographers, or instructors. The diving becomes a means to an end rather than the focus of the activity. The swimming performance is not as important because it is not needed to do the main focus of the activity (framing pictures, or interacting with students). But when it comes to exploration, options are limited. You can become a tech diver and explore deeper, but the only options presently for exploring outward in the ocean instead of down is the equipment of treasure hunting. That equipment is far more expensive than even tech diving equipment, and very few people do it. My equipment can chip away at those limitations and allow divers to start exploring out instead of down. I think there are a lot of really great dive sites out there that have yet to be discovered because no one has ever dove there to find it. The adoption of this type of new equipment could be the dawn of a new era in underwater exploration.

Does this make any more sense?
 
The issue lies not in the term "requirements". It lies in the fact that you are trying (now again) to state that divers that do not see use of your gear in their diving are wrong (basically).

Adventure and exploration demand a certain level of autonomy of the diver. One can't be adventuresome while being slaved to a dive boat operator.
Please define "adventure", "exploration" and "adventuresome". Sure it's fun to swim around for a while, but if the only thing you discover is sand, well, I don't consider that fun.
If I have a boat running around with a sonar scanning to find some wreck and let me drop down on it, that's what I call adventure and exploration, even if it turns out to be nothing. Much more fun imo than "well, let me swim for 3 hours to see if I can cover a km^2, maybe I'll be able to find something".

The ratio between the time spent chasing and the covered surface just does not make it worth it imo.
 
The issue lies not in the term "requirements". It lies in the fact that you are trying (now again) to state that divers that do not see use of your gear in their diving are wrong (basically).


Please define "adventure", "exploration" and "adventuresome". Sure it's fun to swim around for a while, but if the only thing you discover is sand, well, I don't consider that fun.
If I have a boat running around with a sonar scanning to find some wreck and let me drop down on it, that's what I call adventure and exploration, even if it turns out to be nothing. Much more fun imo than "well, let me swim for 3 hours to see if I can cover a km^2, maybe I'll be able to find something".

The ratio between the time spent chasing and the covered surface just does not make it worth it imo.
There was a lot of resistence to my "requirements". I think that the term may have gotten distorted in translation from engineer to diver. The engineering process begins with "requirements". The requirements define what the goal of the design is to accomplish. Does it mean that no one should dive without meeting these requirements. No, it does not mean that. It means that a system I design to those requirements should be able to demonstrate compliance to those requirements. If not the design failed to achieve the intended goal for the hardware. I defined my requirements in terms of the speeds that are statistically driven by ocean conditions. Perhaps I needed to spend more time talking about why I wanted to do this aside from general safety and a claim that "it just makes sense".

The emphasis should be on when revan said "my requirements". Others have taken this as general diving requirements.

The focus of the referenced articles, and therefore this thread, was to let the scuba diving community know about research that has been conducted. I believe that goal has been met,

The issue of "why do I need this technology" has come up several times in the comments and apparently has not been adequately addressed.

This is a valid question and deserves a detailed answer and discussion. The question does not have a singular answer. In addition, I do not think this thread is the proper place for that discussion.

I am basically a lurker here and not a regulator monitor of "Scubaboard" but have followed this thread in detail and have a basic interest in the content. I am removed from diving enough that I can see both sides of this issue.

If revan, patoux, fjpatrum or others are interested in discussing these issues I would like to follow and contribute to a new thread. Otherwise, my quick answer is that many potential dives and divers are not accomplished because of the limitations expressed in this thread.

I am a good example of this. I began diving in the 60s when "SCUBA" was an established industry and training was much better than it is today with NAUI, PADI, and many other alphabet organizations were unknown or did not exist. (I am John Ratliff's age but chose pursuits other than diving.)

I understand that the diving community is not expanding. This is an issue with other activities as well. Perhaps this is a real problem and perhaps it is simply a sign of the times and imagined issue. Regardless, there are reasons why many do not continue with scuba recreation and why patoux makes the following comment:

Please define "adventure", "exploration" and "adventuresome". Sure it's fun to swim around for a while, but if the only thing you discover is sand, well, I don't consider that fun.
If I have a boat running around with a sonar scanning to find some wreck and let me drop down on it, that's what I call adventure and exploration, even if it turns out to be nothing. Much more fun imo than "well, let me swim for 3 hours to see if I can cover a km^2, maybe I'll be able to find something".

The ratio between the time spent chasing and the covered surface just does not make it worth it imo.
 
I've been thinking about this some. Why was I not convincing? There are probably many parts to this and it should be noted that some people are convinced that better swimming performance can lead to better dives and that this goal is worth pursuing. Obviously, others are not convinced.

There was a lot of resistence to my "requirements". I think that the term may have gotten distorted in translation from engineer to diver. The engineering process begins with "requirements". The requirements define what the goal of the design is to accomplish. Does it mean that no one should dive without meeting these requirements. No, it does not mean that. It means that a system I design to those requirements should be able to demonstrate compliance to those requirements. If not the design failed to achieve the intended goal for the hardware. I defined my requirements in terms of the speeds that are statistically driven by ocean conditions. Perhaps I needed to spend more time talking about why I wanted to do this aside from general safety and a claim that "it just makes sense".

While not everyone, I think it is true that most people who are interested in diving are initially drawn to it because of a desire for exploration and adventure. I also think one of the reasons that the attrition rate among new divers is so high is that they eventually learn that scuba diving is not an cost effective activity to satisfy that urge for exploration. The general lack of mobility leaves divers, in many cases, slaved to a dive boat for access to the ocean and that means you go where the dive boat goes. For some, and perhaps many, that is fine. That's what they want, they want the dive to be easy and they are willing customers for a guided tour. But this type of tour bus experience will not do much for quenching one's appetite for exploration, as you are unlikely to discover anything new. You will see what thousands of others have seen before you and it may be nice, but it is not very adventuresome.

If you want adventure, you need to get your own boat. Now, you are not talking about a few thousand dollars for dive gear to explore the ocean, you are adding anywhere from about $5k for a used small minimalist boat to $120k for a larger sized new boat that you can stay on, with the average boat probably falling in the $20k to $30k range. Then there are the costs for maintaining and operating a boat. Those costs usually match the initial purchase price over a typical time of ownership. In the end, it gets too expensive and people decide to go hiking or camping instead.

Adventure and exploration demand a certain level of autonomy of the diver. One can't be adventuresome while being slaved to a dive boat operator. My "requirements" were designed to reach what I thought would achieve that needed level of autonomy in the ocean, that a diver can be liberated from the dive boat operator. They can do a lot of dives without the dive boat at all and in the cases where a dive boat is still used, the scope of operations gives the diver a wide range of explorable territory (A diver could potentially range several miles if desired).

On top of this, the improved mobility can add certain elements of safety to just being in the ocean, so it is good from that perspective as well.

For those to want the tour bus experience, that's fine. The goal of those operations is to try to show you a nice dive spot that will have easy diving conditions. You probably will not have to swim much. In that case, this equipment will not do a whole lot for you and I can see why that kind of diver would not want to pay extra for the added capability that they will not use.

I have known people who just dropped of the back of the boat, went to the bottom and sat there looking around until they got board, and then back up to the boat. They had no need for swimming performance because they really didn't swim at all. They eventually quit diving.

Some people keep diving interesting by becoming photographers, or instructors. The diving becomes a means to an end rather than the focus of the activity. The swimming performance is not as important because it is not needed to do the main focus of the activity (framing pictures, or interacting with students). But when it comes to exploration, options are limited. You can become a tech diver and explore deeper, but the only options presently for exploring outward in the ocean instead of down is the equipment of treasure hunting. That equipment is far more expensive than even tech diving equipment, and very few people do it. My equipment can chip away at those limitations and allow divers to start exploring out instead of down. I think there are a lot of really great dive sites out there that have yet to be discovered because no one has ever dove there to find it. The adoption of this type of new equipment could be the dawn of a new era in underwater exploration.

Does this make any more sense?
I think there are many levels of commitment to the sport. It ranges from the one or two time a year vacation diver that goes to warm water and could care less about gear and configuration as long as it works and they don't miss any dives. These people are the least to obsess over gear choices and special training, etc.
Then at the highest levels there are various tech divers with tens of thousands invested in gear and training.
They live the life.
Boat ownership is also a commitment to some degree depending on the boat and how it's set up. I used to be a boat owner so I know all about how they constantly suck up money.
I was still only doing two to three dives in a day, the same that I can do from a kayak or from shore. But with a boat I was able to reach spots not accessable by shore. However that didn't always mean there was better stuff to see, and then at what cost?
So I decided finally the in my area a boat was not optimal all reasons considered.
With minimalist diving, it's just another twig of interest in an already slim branch of commited diving. Divers who would be interested in maximum efficiency are far and few between when the whole sport is considered. One thing that minimalist diving has over some other specialized school is that it can easily be adopted by just the casual diver where as serious tech diving can not without a lot of added gear and training.

I don't think Revan is pushing his ideas as "my way or you're wrong" at all, I think he's just trying to make those that never knew about such a thing aware of the option.
It's the naysayers here that seem to have the most hangups about it.
I've been in the middle of these battles for years on scubaboard, way longer than some of the posters in this thread, so now I just lay back and mostly read. Besides I just had my hip replaced two weeks ago and have some time on my hands.
Scuba diving has rebounded to a natural level now. I don't believe it's dying or shrinking except for people who probably don't belong doing it, maybe they're the ones dropping out?
The dedicated dive community is doing fine and the industry just needs to adjust that's all.
Those that really want to do it will always do it. Scuba isn't something that can be force fed to the public.
 
It often takes people on the extreme ends to create a shift in the norm. The full on extreme tech diver, minimalist diver, speed diver, etc.. Some of their gear and practices can fit right in with the typical recreational diver, other things totally do not fit. You can look at them with open eyes for things you could and might want to adapt or shun them because they are different.

This past vacation on a Cayman Islands liveaboard, one diver was regularly doing dolphin kicks. Many others were asking me about my long free dive fins and people frequently marvel about my small wing and minimalist BCD. Will any of these things become more common ? Who knows, but people and trends cannot change if they never saw or heard about alternatives and possibilities.
 
It often takes people on the extreme ends to create a shift in the norm. The full on extreme tech diver, minimalist diver, speed diver, etc.. Some of their gear and practices can fit right in with the typical recreational diver, other things totally do not fit. You can look at them with open eyes for things you could and might want to adapt or shun them because they are different.

This past vacation on a Cayman Islands liveaboard, one diver was regularly doing dolphin kicks. Many others were asking me about my long free dive fins and people frequently marvel about my small wing and minimalist BCD. Will any of these things become more common ? Who knows, but people and trends cannot change if they never saw or heard about alternatives and possibilities.
I also truly believe that the established industry in general has a vested interest in keeping things the way they are. Call me a conspiracy nut, but I remember the outright negativity displayed by dive shops when I used to call on them and show my product. In some cases it was outright contempt.
I think they are very happy keeping things the way they are. Why would they want to sell less stuff?
So in that regard, a diver almost has to discover any and all new systems, products, dive styles, alternative training, etc. on their own because they sure won't get any info from the dive shops willingly, and in most cases I found dive shops to be some of the most ignorant and uneducated about exactly what we're talking about. Like you said, on a dive boat somewhere is where people usually find out about the other untold side of diving. And also at popular shore diving spots where lots of divers may congregate, they might they see something really cutting edge and cool. They certainly will never know about it if they take the dive shops word as gospel.
 
I also truly believe that the established industry in general has a vested interest in keeping things the way they are. Call me a conspiracy nut, but I remember the outright negativity displayed by dive shops when I used to call on them and show my product. In some cases it was outright contempt.
I think they are very happy keeping things the way they are. Why would they want to sell less stuff?
So in that regard, a diver almost has to discover any and all new systems, products, dive styles, alternative training, etc. on their own because they sure won't get any info from the dive shops willingly, and in most cases I found dive shops to be some of the most ignorant and uneducated about exactly what we're talking about. Like you said, on a dive boat somewhere is where people usually find out about the other untold side of diving. And also at popular shore diving spots where lots of divers may congregate, they might they see something really cutting edge and cool. They certainly will never know about it if they take the dive shops word as gospel.

I agree 100%. However, the internet, pictures and video has put the knowledge out there for people to see and discover. The savy manufacturers are tapping into the niche markets by offering different models of gear. You could have one do it all 30 lb wing, but you could also buy a 2nd wing at 17 lbs for travel and warm water diving. At that point, you could also have a separate travel backplate. Fins ? Stiff fins for cold water and tech dives, lightweight full foot fins for warm water boat dives. Manta Industries sells an octopus necklace. It works the same as a DIY necklace made from bungee or surgical tubing. Scubapro now sells BP/W.

I recently read a thread about a relatively new regulator hose routing option for OW recreational. It included video by Dive Rite describing routing you main reg hose under your right arm with a 90 deg adapter for streamlining purposes. Looked good to me so I tried it. Works like a charm.

Your Contour backplates have a strong following, but I can see how you ran into resistance getting shops to sell them. For them, it is about making money. If they can't make money from your product or if it cuts into sales of their other products they aren't interested.
 
Please define "adventure", "exploration" and "adventuresome". Sure it's fun to swim around for a while, but if the only thing you discover is sand, well, I don't consider that fun.
If I have a boat running around with a sonar scanning to find some wreck and let me drop down on it, that's what I call adventure and exploration, even if it turns out to be nothing. Much more fun imo than "well, let me swim for 3 hours to see if I can cover a km^2, maybe I'll be able to find something".
Sorry, but to me spending 3 hours in a boat looking at sonar readings is not more fun than spending three hours in the water diving, especially if it turns out to be nothing. Three hours trawling in a boat, with associated fuel and maintenance, and then finding nothing? I spend hours in the water diving, and the guy in the boat spends hours looking at video monitor only to anchor the boat, suit up, and drop down for a 10 minute dive to discover there was nothing there and then still have all the associated gear cleaning. This has to be repeated for every point of interest, so may happen several times, pulling anchor, dawning and doffing gear. I like my plan better. Instant feedback on what's there. If nothing, I don't even stop.

This does make me think that when the swimming performance gets high enough, I'm going to want to integrate sonar into the diving kit. High performance swimming + sonar + visual; that system platform worked wonders for cetaceans, why not us?
 
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