Diving Performance - Beyond Drag (article Series And Discussion)

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This thread is about diving faster. Cold water drysuit divers put speed at a low priority. Makes sense and I would expect this thread would not interest them. That is why I asked Fjpatrum what kind of diving he does and what fins he uses. His anti speed negativity seemed odd for someone interested enough to read and post in this thread. He also posted he has 50 dives. Given his strong opinions and claims that most divers are not interested in speed, I was expecting he would have more dive experience.
 
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There is a saying that there are three kinds if people. Those that make things happen. Those who follow what is happening. And, those who wonder what has happened....
I believe it is helpful in general for all to strive to be in the first group, the one that makes things happen. That is how we make progress and improve our world.
Interesting POV.

Looks like this list is down to about 3 or 4 followers.
While there may not be that many people active on this thread, it is a useful discussion to have. Besides, someone important could be reading, or will read this in the future.

Regardless of the following, this thread has helped me to come up with new ideas. I don't know if I will build these new ideas as I've gotten pretty good at diving no BC and I don't have the ability to effectively market the new tech if I go through the work to prototype it. However, thanks to some inspiration from discussions I've had with others on this thread, I think I have resolved how to make a kit that is just as streamlined as the kit from part 3 of the article, but that includes both stable buoyancy compensation and the octopus, and I think the hardware may prove to be even be less expensive than what is being done with equipment now. It could be wins all around, being faster, lighter, safer and cheaper.

If anyone from the big manufacturers is reading any of this and wants to pursue the hydrodynamics of diving, consider this my job resume. I can make it a reality if you can manufacture and sell it.
 
Maybe time to create new threads in their respective forum category ? tanks, fins, bcd. maybe freediving and spearfishing to discuss your fins ? You might find new people interested in those particular subjects.
 
Sorry, but to me spending 3 hours in a boat looking at sonar readings is not more fun than spending three hours in the water diving, especially if it turns out to be nothing. Three hours trawling in a boat, with associated fuel and maintenance, and then finding nothing? I spend hours in the water diving, and the guy in the boat spends hours looking at video monitor only to anchor the boat, suit up, and drop down for a 10 minute dive to discover there was nothing there and then still have all the associated gear cleaning. This has to be repeated for every point of interest, so may happen several times, pulling anchor, dawning and doffing gear. I like my plan better. Instant feedback on what's there. If nothing, I don't even stop.

This does make me think that when the swimming performance gets high enough, I'm going to want to integrate sonar into the diving kit. High performance swimming + sonar + visual; that system platform worked wonders for cetaceans, why not us?
You're a dreamer, Revan. That what makes your posts interesting.
 
I've been thinking about this some. Why was I not convincing? There are probably many parts to this and it should be noted that some people are convinced that better swimming performance can lead to better dives and that this goal is worth pursuing. Obviously, others are not convinced.

There was a lot of resistence to my "requirements". I think that the term may have gotten distorted in translation from engineer to diver. The engineering process begins with "requirements". The requirements define what the goal of the design is to accomplish. Does it mean that no one should dive without meeting these requirements. No, it does not mean that. It means that a system I design to those requirements should be able to demonstrate compliance to those requirements. If not the design failed to achieve the intended goal for the hardware. I defined my requirements in terms of the speeds that are statistically driven by ocean conditions. Perhaps I needed to spend more time talking about why I wanted to do this aside from general safety and a claim that "it just makes sense”.

The problem I see here, as a fellow engineer, is that requirements need to be based on some realistic scenario. It follows that, from an engineering perspective, your requirements are fine, for your stated goals. From a marketable perspective, this is where they fail, in my opinion. What I’ve always said is that you fail to look at ANY perspective, other than your own, of what people WANT. That is what makes engineers fail as entrepreneurs. Sure, what you’re doing is interesting, awesome, even.

But you have to market it (even just as information) to a large enough audience that it will sell. You simply aren’t doing that. You’re marketing it to a very small niche market, which is fine, if that’s what you’re shooting for but I suspect you want to reach a larger audience.

As I’ve indicated, the way to do this is to make it relatable to the average diver, not the person you think wants to go seeking adventure where the currents get strong.

While not everyone, I think it is true that most people who are interested in diving are initially drawn to it because of a desire for exploration and adventure. I also think one of the reasons that the attrition rate among new divers is so high is that they eventually learn that scuba diving is not an cost effective activity to satisfy that urge for exploration. The general lack of mobility leaves divers, in many cases, slaved to a dive boat for access to the ocean and that means you go where the dive boat goes. For some, and perhaps many, that is fine. That's what they want, they want the dive to be easy and they are willing customers for a guided tour. But this type of tour bus experience will not do much for quenching one's appetite for exploration, as you are unlikely to discover anything new. You will see what thousands of others have seen before you and it may be nice, but it is not very adventuresome.

If you want adventure, you need to get your own boat. Now, you are not talking about a few thousand dollars for dive gear to explore the ocean, you are adding anywhere from about $5k for a used small minimalist boat to $120k for a larger sized new boat that you can stay on, with the average boat probably falling in the $20k to $30k range. Then there are the costs for maintaining and operating a boat. Those costs usually match the initial purchase price over a typical time of ownership. In the end, it gets too expensive and people decide to go hiking or camping instead.

You’re using a lot of vague terms that are so subjective as to be useless for this conversation. There are plenty of “adventures” that don’t involve a “guided tour” nor do they require any more mobility than is currently available commercially. I suspect the things I find “ho hum” in another aspect of my life would be considered incredibly thrilling by you while the diving I find “adventuresome” you clearly find boring. Again, you’re incorrectly extrapolating your own interests to the rest of the diving population. I also, still, disagree with your myopic assessment of why people stop diving. It’s far more complicated than you’re suggesting.

As for needing your own boat for “adventure”, that’s a red herring and you know it. It’s trivially easy for people to hire a private charter at a fraction of the costs you’re discussing. That said, I think that cost is actually a minor concern for most people who stick with diving.

Adventure and exploration demand a certain level of autonomy of the diver. One can't be adventuresome while being slaved to a dive boat operator.

My "requirements" were designed to reach what I thought would achieve that needed level of autonomy in the ocean, that a diver can be liberated from the dive boat operator. They can do a lot of dives without the dive boat at all and in the cases where a dive boat is still used, the scope of operations gives the diver a wide range of explorable territory (A diver could potentially range several miles if desired).

On top of this, the improved mobility can add certain elements of safety to just being in the ocean, so it is good from that perspective as well.

Adventure requires autonomy of your mind, nothing more. The rest is just degrees of subjectivity, as I’ve said before. Again, all these dives you’re considering swimming to without a boat are far more practical with surface support of a boat. In the end, you gain very little other than not having other people around. In cases where currents are “adventurous” this negates all the added safety you’re claiming you get by being able to swim at such speeds. The only added safety is if you continue to dive in the same environments we currently dive in and have the same level of dive support that is common. Only then does your actual safety gain any improvement.

For those to want the tour bus experience, that's fine. The goal of those operations is to try to show you a nice dive spot that will have easy diving conditions. You probably will not have to swim much. In that case, this equipment will not do a whole lot for you and I can see why that kind of diver would not want to pay extra for the added capability that they will not use.

I have known people who just dropped of the back of the boat, went to the bottom and sat there looking around until they got board, and then back up to the boat. They had no need for swimming performance because they really didn't swim at all. They eventually quit diving.

And I know people who’ve done just that for thousands of dives with no compunction to do otherwise. See how useless anecdotes are for convincing people of your position?

Furthermore there are far more people currently diving (that’s your target audience, after all) that consider the “easy dive where they probably won’t have to swim much” as the epitome of diving than there are people looking for your “adventure” dives. There are very few “pioneers” looking to find new places to explore. Perhaps you are truly one of those personalities and simply can’t grasp why the rest of the world isn’t.

Some people keep diving interesting by becoming photographers, or instructors. The diving becomes a means to an end rather than the focus of the activity. The swimming performance is not as important because it is not needed to do the main focus of the activity (framing pictures, or interacting with students). But when it comes to exploration, options are limited. You can become a tech diver and explore deeper, but the only options presently for exploring outward in the ocean instead of down is the equipment of treasure hunting. That equipment is far more expensive than even tech diving equipment, and very few people do it. My equipment can chip away at those limitations and allow divers to start exploring out instead of down. I think there are a lot of really great dive sites out there that have yet to be discovered because no one has ever dove there to find it. The adoption of this type of new equipment could be the dawn of a new era in underwater exploration.

Does this make any more sense?

Again, “expoloration” doesn’t have to mean moving fast. Astronomers explore every day by looking through a tiny lens or reading reports. Photographers, whether above the surface or below, explore a thousand different ways without moving more than a few feet. I can “explore” the same 400 square feet of a reef for an infinite number of dives and never see the exact same thing twice. For me, the beauty is in the interaction not in how much space I cover. I’m not looking for “thrills” while diving.

I’ve always understood your perspective so it didn’t really require any more explanation. As I’ve said, I think you are simply mistakenly assuming that a lot of divers are like you.

Again, to be convincing you have to relate the information to what the audience wants, not what you want.
 
This thread is about diving faster. Cold water drysuit divers put speed at a low priority. Makes sense and I would expect this thread would not interest them. That is why I asked Fjpatrum what kind of diving he does and what fins he uses. His anti speed negativity seemed odd for someone interested enough to read and post in this thread. He also posted he has 50 dives. Given his strong opinions and claims that most divers are not interested in speed, I was expecting he would have more dive experience.
I'm not sure whether bringing up my number of dives was somehow supposed to be an insult or not. I'll assume not and expand (again) that I have no problem with speed. I have only ever said that, if you want to change people's perspectives, you have to relate the information to what those people want, not what you want. That is actually what I see this thread as being about- not speed. It's about how to market the information that efficiency=speed=safety.

My "strong opinions" are about how to market the information, nothing else, and they have nothing to do with "anti-speed". The only thing I've said, with respect to that, is that I'm not convinced there will actually be any performance difference based upon what I've seen so far. Everything else I have said has been about marketing to the audience and I've provided suggestions on the types of things I think would be effective at doing that.

My dive count notwithstanding, I've been reading scubaboard and several other diving sites since before I finished my certification. In the ten thousand plus threads I've read and the thousand or so I've participated in, there have been only a handful of people who've ever indicated they wanted more speed. On the contrary, most people say to "slow down". I've never said I didn't see the benefit to @REVAN 's ideas. (On the contrary, I've said I find them quite interesting, which is why I've posted in the threads where he's had these discussions.) I've said he's not convincing enough people that it will actually make a difference to them, not that I think there's something inherently bad about his ideas. There's a big difference between those two things.
 
Again, to be convincing you have to relate the information to what the audience wants, not what you want.
I guess, I don't know how to do that without explaining the advantages I see with being more efficient in the water.

On the contrary, most people say to "slow down".
I think the reason people say to slow down is to lower work load, not because slower is better. More efficiency will allow a lower workload without the penalty of slowing down. If the real goal was to move less, the advice wold be to not use any fins at all.

My "strong opinions" are about how to market the information, nothing else, and they have nothing to do with "anti-speed". The only thing I've said, with respect to that, is that I'm not convinced there will actually be any performance difference based upon what I've seen so far. Everything else I have said has been about marketing to the audience and I've provided suggestions on the types of things I think would be effective at doing that.
I assume you've seen the pool videos. I can't provide much more than the video evidence showing metrics of the final results, so I can't help you with your skepticism. I think that's more your issue than mine.

Maybe I missed it, but as far as I know the only suggestion you provided so far is that I need to be more convincing that swimming efficiency and speed matters. The message received is that my reasons for pursuing these goals do not apply to other divers and that it holds no value toward what they want to do. I haven't heard any actual suggestions on how to be more convincing that it does have value to what they want to do. Clearly, this is an area where I need help. If you, or others, have ideas on how to do this, I'd certainly like to hear them.
 
What I’ve always said is that you fail to look at ANY perspective, other than your own, of what people WANT.

It is helpful to hear what others want. Each of us see things from our perspective. My perspective takes into account experiences from others as they have been communicated to me as well as my own experiences. After considering all these things, I came to my conclusions as to what makes sense for performance. You have done the same and came to a different conclusion. I have quite a bit more diving experience than you and I think I have thought about this a lot more than you have, but that doesn't necessarily make me right and you wrong.

We all have our own perspectives and opinions, but somehow you assert that my opinion only applies to me and yours represents almost everyone else. You say that I am projecting what I want onto others, but aren't you taking your perspective and doing the same?
 
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I guess, I don't know how to do that without explaining the advantages I see with being more efficient in the water.
Again, I think you want people to listen to you based on the merit of your points, which is admirable, but not effective. People only hear what they want to hear and pointing out “you’ve been doing it wrong” generally doesn’t go over well.

I think the reason people say to slow down is to lower work load, not because slower is better. More efficiency will allow a lower workload without the penalty of slowing down. If the real goal was to move less, the advice wold be to not use any fins at all.
I’ll respectfully disagree. More efficiency is a good thing, but the reality is there’s a law of diminishing returns and, unless you can convince them otherwise, most people (me included) simply believe we’re at that point. When your goal is to go slow, efficiency for speed doesn’t stoke a lot of people’s interest.

I assume you've seen the pool videos. I can't provide much more than the video evidence showing metrics of the final results, so I can't help you with your skepticism. I think that's more your issue than mine.

Yes, I saw the videos and commented on them in this thread. My skepticism is based upon the fact that you, like I said in my previous comments, compared your scuba rig to free diving, which is interesting but an irrelevant comparison for other scuba divers. I'll respectfully disagree that my skepticism is an issue. I’m just trying to point out ways you could get your message to more people and have it resonate with them. If you don’t want that, what’s the point of this thread?

Maybe I missed it, but as far as I know the only suggestion you provided so far is that I need to be more convincing that swimming efficiency and speed matters. The message received is that my reasons for pursuing these goals do not apply to other divers and that it holds no value toward what they want to do. I haven't heard any actual suggestions on how to be more convincing that it does have value to what they want to do. Clearly, this is an area where I need help. If you, or others, have ideas on how to do this, I'd certainly like to hear them.
Actually, you have heard other suggestions and responded to them. I suggested more testing and a comparison of your rig to a “standard” scuba rig instead of freediving. You keep insisting there’s a “20% efficiency gain” but you don’t back it up with any actual data of that. You can compare data on percentage of efficiency gains (based on some debatable assumptions) until you’re blue in the face but if it doesn’t relate to how the people actually use their gear they simply won’t care. Provide data that applies to the audience and you’ll have their attention. That’s all I’ve been saying, over and over again.

Like I said, you’re clearly not interested in giving people information that matters to them and you’ve said you’re not going to do any further research to support your argument so I’ll bow out, again. I promise to stay away this time.
 
Provide data that applies to the audience and you’ll have their attention. That’s all I’ve been saying, over and over again.
Well before you go, I need you to explain what the data is that applies to the audience. If you don't care about swimming speed, what am I supposed to show that is relevant to you?
 

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