Divers vs Underwater Tourists

[gcbryan]

i agree

but i am not sure that how often you dive per year or where you dive really determines whether you are a diver or not

if you're diving more but just repeating bad habits, are you really a diver? and what if you dive less but have awesome skills?

i'm just trying to figure out what skills or abilities you would consider to make the difference ...

or in other words, what tangible criteria can you apply to determine whether you are a diver or not quite one yet?

I wouldn't. If you don't dive often and are competent and safe it's the same as if you do dive often and are the same. If you dive often and aren't safe then you need a DM and aren't a diver.

 

[psychocabbage]

Hmmm.. Not going to read all the replies yet but I am more akin to an underwater tourist. I do dive in our local quarries and such and I get in whenever I can but I dont feel anyone is responsible for me or my actions but me.

Ever dive in Key Largo? They dont babysit you there.. You a diver? Then you should know how to navigate and do your planned dive and return to the boat without anyone helping you.

I see your point, but there are just too many people that do not want to take the time to learn or master a skill set. They can breathe underwater and for the most part, while on vaca, they will have some DM guide them around.. perhaps not as a buddy but he/she will be nearby...

I know that for our family, we wont have to worry about much since we take care of our own.. The wife takes the pics.. me and the kids goof off.. everyone else does their dive..

I dont worry about people on the boat with me cause you dont want me to start nit picking your diving style.. And when you see me drifting upside down, playing with bubbles, I am sure you may not agree that I have my trim down right..

We are all having to be around moronic divers... Sad but true.. Not much you can do about it but grin and bear it.. Or just charter your own boat and do your own dives and not look into any dive related news.. so you dont get upset over some newb that messed up and bought the big one.

 

[gcbryan]

I'm a new "diver". I have only 22 logged dives + countless hours in the pool with and without scuba gear.
I live far from any diving place and usually dive on vacation in warm waters.
After being certified I did several dives with an instructor to certify night, dry suit and onboard. Next dives will be to certify deep and navigation. Will turn to "advanced" diver soon (sorry, this is the Touristic clasification that SSI has.....).
I also did several dives with buddies with less experience than me without a DM. I had to guide the dive.
Following your thought, I should be consider an Underwater tourist.
The question would be if, to your experience, there is a magical moment when I could certify being a diver and no more an Underwater tourist.
Maybe there are several intermediate status and/or certifications.
Perhaps "Underwater tourist basic", "Underwater tourist medium", "UWT advanced", "new diver junior", "almost diver", "still not diver" and finally, "DIVER", no matter how many logged dives you have in your log book.
Who would be the jury that defines you are a "DIVER" ?

I do not like the terms of this thread. Who gave you the right to qualify the rest of the world ?

I'm not qualifying the rest of the world. I'm not in charge! As far as I can see you are a diver. You can dive without a DM. What's the problem?

Do you agree that someone is a diver who cannot dive without a DM? That's all I am saying.

 

[gcbryan]

Sorry gcbryan---disagree 100 %---esp this statement(in fact I quit reading your post @ the end of this quote)....."If you are a new diver and only dive in tropical locales on vacation you are an underwater tourist not a diver and you should hire a DM to be your buddy (and only your buddy) on every dive."....Man, you got old way too soon.....

That's the problem with closing your mind and not reading the post in it's entirety.

If it sounds outrageous to say that if you are new and dive in the tropics you are not a diver then that probably wasn't the point...

If you are new (no experience) and seldom dive (limited vacations perhaps) then you aren't competent in most cases to dive alone and therefore you will be needing a DM to follow you around. If that is the case then you are something other than what I would refer to as a diver.

You can use the title if you wish. You tell me how to describe someone who can't dive without a DM? I am just choosing to call such a person something other than a diver.

I'm not saying that if you are new and like to go to the tropics that you aren't competent. I'm saying if you aren't competent and need a DM I would describe you as something other than a diver.

The point is if you can't take care of yourself it's doing everyone a disservice to pretend that everything is OK and just let you get killed. Realize that most people on the boat are divers and will be diving and if what they are doing is too dangerous for you then hire a DM or don't get on the boat. Don't think that it's OK because you are all divers.

 

[spectrum]

gcbryan,

You bring up a valid observation but framing things in generalities is always dangerous.

Some divers are naturals and in short order dive with proficiency, even if their experience is not deep. Other divers are a lot longer getting the hang of things.

Some people have been diving for along time but circumstances now limit their diving. Anyone here will probably agree that frequent diving is always best. On the other hand I also believe that in many cases the lifelong diver can continue to make occasional safe dives. To some extent it is like riding a bicycle.

I feel that very diver needs to recognize their limitations and dive accordingly. I appreciate your position that a dive leader can only be counted on to do so so much to keep an individual safe. It's an inescapable fact that not all training is equal, just as not all students are equal. Not all divers have the resources, drive or insight to reach the levels of proficiency that many more avid divers enjoy.

However I also believe that any diver is a diver. They have completed training however basic and earned the right to practice the sport. Even that occasional unseasoned diver that you suggest have a hired guardian angel can surely dive with more safety and competence than someone that never put themselves out there to learn.

As an active non professional diver the best I can offer is to enthusiastically advocate frequent local diving and extend myself to mentor when given the opportunity.

Dive Safe & Often
Pete

 

[WarmWaterDiver]

Never seen a car rental agency emphasize that 'buddy team driving' is what's necessary to be safe.

Driving doesn't immediately immerse one in an IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health) atmosphere - some may argue certain urban traffic patters around the globe defy this, this is an individual judgement call I'd guess.

I got my OW cert at a Caribbean AI. My first post-cert OW dive was to 90 fsw - hard sand bottom at 90' - and boy did I hoover that tank down quick, the leaky BC bubbling constantly around the inflator button didn't help matters. My first post-cert safety stop was a mid-water no-rope 15 footer. I pulled it off.

Did I trust the DM/OWSI's (there were two with the dive group) - no, absolutely not.

Did I trust my dive buddy and did we communicate well- absolutely yes.

Was it awesome - I'm still doing it.

I always say it's a sign of true love. My dive buddy has about half my gas consumption, is the sole recipient of my estate if I kick the bucket, and we always come back together from every dive. I did have some physical issues that hadn't quite surfaced though.

Would I do this with anyone else - no, quite frankly not. We have had DM's add a 'third' on-the-spot buddy on dive boats and didn't like the experience - often they were better divers than I was. However, diving with another buddy team or two, kind of like what The Dive Bus on Curacao offers, though nobody's required to have a 'professional' level cert, has been quite fun in our travels.

There's no one-size-fits-all labeling, siloing, compartmentalizing etc. that can be done here as far as I can see. But we're used to being geeks, nerds, - and dork divers too!

 

[gcbryan]

gcbryan,

You bring up a valid observation but framing things in generalities is always dangerous.

Some divers are naturals and in short order dive with proficiency, even if their experience is not deep. Other divers are a lot longer getting the hang of things.

Some people have been diving for along time but circumstances now limit their diving. Anyone here will probably agree that frequent diving is always best. On the other hand I also believe that in many cases the lifelong diver can continue to make occasional safe dives. To some extent it is like riding a bicycle.

I feel that very diver needs to recognize their limitations and dive accordingly. I appreciate your position that a dive leader can only be counted on to do so so much to keep an individual safe. It's an inescapable fact that not all training is equal, just as not all students are equal. Not all divers have the resources, drive or insight to reach the levels of proficiency that many more avid divers enjoy.

However I also believe that any diver is a diver. They have completed training however basic and earned the right to practice the sport. Even that occasional unseasoned diver that you suggest have a hired guardian angel can surely dive with more safety and competence than someone that never put themselves out there to learn.

As an active non professional diver the best I can offer is to enthusiastically advocate frequent local diving and extend myself to mentor when given the opportunity.

Dive Safe & Often
Pete

I agree with everything that you've said. I'm not even suggesting to actually take away the title of diver. Underwater tourist was just a means of describing what one is doing if they have to have a DM along to assure their safety. I don't believe in benchmarks either. That's why I said the end goal is just to be a safe, competent, and comfortable diver in whatever circumstances you choose to dive.

Even the newest diver can generally be relatively comfortable in some environment. It's always the divers choice to get out of that comfort zone. When you do and an accident happens it's not helpful to blame it on anyone else. It would be much better to realize that you need to hire a private DM than to think a group DM will automatically be able to save you if you get into situations beyond your abilities.

Rather than leap into the waters and expect superhuman abilities of DM's I believe it's better to know your own limitations and act accordingly. We all have out limits and we all should realize them and not expect someone else to keep us safe.

This post has nothing to do with newer divers vs older divers. Just know your limitations before something happens rather than realize it or pass the blame afterward. It doesn't help the victim either.

 

[Web Monkey]

As a still-very-inexperienced diver I would tend towards hiring a DM/instructor to accompany me on every dive, particularly when conditions fall outside my comfort zone or range of prior experience, such as at a new site. Frankly I think this is sensible rather than over-cautions;

It's a nice thought, but you might also find that you aren't getting what you think you're paying for.

Check out this thread. There's a dead guy who also thought the DM would keep him safe.

Terry

 

[jswantek]

How would you factor in an incompetent dive master? Oh, wait, there's no such thing, is there...?

 

[gene02]

Y'all are welcome to come visit and dive in our pond or the Corps ditch alongside our property to keep your dive skills in shape. The four footed local that pops up in our pond from time to time is protected, but the legless locals aren't. The only one I've dispatched was the moccasin, it was revealed when my wife moved her car on a Saturday morning to change the oil - it was torpid and undoubtedly got under there the night before while the engine was warm - her feet were inches from it getting into her car that morning, unknowingly at the time. Low vis, fresh water, and things to take touristy pics of - that's way better than some quarry! Now that you mention it it's hard to reckon why we pay money to go other places to dive! Big paradigm buster!

Color me as an underwater tourist . . .

Love the King Snake you may even want to buy him a rat or two to hang out for a while keeps the other snakes away. Sorry to jack the thread just had to comment on the snake. OH and I am one of those vacation tourist also.