Bob DBF
Contributor
Put them on the dink list Chief, works for me.
Bob
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Diver Training: How much is enough?
- Thread starter DCBC
- Start date
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Put them on the dink list Chief, works for me.
Bob
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Down boy! LOL
Wayne, just let me clarify one thing. The "old dogs" comment was not to suggest that you're behind the times in terms of your diving knowledge. I have no reason to (nor do I) doubt your domain knowledge.
You're not alone in this but the "learning" that I alluded to is the need to learn how to communicate on an equal footing with people who you (among others) believe are inferior.. (whether you say it out loud or not). Your next move is usually to try something (often playing the victim card) to turn the tables so I looks like I'm to blame for pointing this out so I thought I'd write this sentence to short circuit that before it happens (or to make it comical if it does)....
This discussion takes up too much attention and we're wasting time. We need content, not tactics. I honestly don't believe we'll ever make any progress if we can't get past deciding "who is the man". (which you are going to claim others are doing but you are not). Everyone has to stop trying to "win" the discussion so we can start getting some best practices on the table. If you haven't noticed, you're not getting any younger and I personally find it a crying shame that we're not talking about the important stuff, which Peter keeps probing for and you keep side-stepping. I am much more interested in getting your best practices on the table for posterity than to have this push-and-shove discussion for the next X number of years until you can't remember where your computer is to log on. What a shame it would be to then have to conclude that all we ever did is sniff each other's butts and that it's such a shame that we've lost a wealth of teaching knowledge.
I just find it so bitter that we never seem to get the feet up on the table, leave the hierarchy at the door and let go of old grudges so we can restart this conversation in a positive and productive atmosphere. We aren't going to change the world so given that the world is the way it is.... how do best do we collectively support each other and our students? That's really what we need to be discussing.
R..
That sums it up rather nicely. It's not so much that the old methodologies are superior as they are clearly not. It's just that the new methodologies don't accommodate the old hierarchies and in fact, they reverse the roles. In this case, BoulderJohn is clearly the best suited for discussing the ins and outs of instructional methodologies and yet DCBC is still suggesting that he as an "experienced opinion" thereby suggesting that no one else (including John) has his level of experience. Shenanigans. Methodologies are still evolving and we are able to get students to a higher skill level in a shorter amount of time. In many respects, PADI is at the forefront of this streamlining and I applaud them for it. SDI and NASE are also innovators in this regard and should not be left out of the discussion. I can't (or won't) speak for any of the other agencies since I am not associated with them and don't think it's appropriate for me to do so.
I also have to say that I find DCBC's conclusions about his discussion with Cronin highly suspect. It's my opinion that he has done the same thing to Cronin as he has done to the rest of us: drawn erroneous conclusions that make him out to be the alpha dog. He has a real ax to grind against PADI since they rejected his over teaching many years ago and it colors his every statement concerning them. It's embarrassing to read at times as I am sure he just doesn't see how poisoned and desperate his dialog has become.
In the end, training comes down to several variations of old vs new methodologies. Students should take a few minutes and talk with their instructors to see what they should expect. If you want old school, be sure to make sure that your instructor is sufficiently old school for you. If you want new and innovative, be sure that your instructor sees themselves as such. Make no doubt about it, we're pretty vocal about which camp we are in. After all is said and done, it's your butt on the line. Only you can decide if your training is sufficient for the type of diving you will be doing.
OP
No Pete, that's not what I was suggesting. Before I had an opportunity to apply my education, I relied on textbooks and Professors to share their viewpoint of the World. That doesn't mean that I don't value these today (the knowledge and experience of others), but weigh them with my own experience. When it comes down to it, I suspect that each of us primarily bases their opinions on how they personally feel/think as a result of weighing knowledge and experiences gained from various sources.
Frankly Pete, you've convinced me that your opinion has little value at the best of times. I knew John reasonably well; I had a U.S. Diver's dealership and was among PADI's first Instructors in Canada. I assisted PADI expand in this Country and helped coordinate their efforts at Underwater Canada for several years. I honestly don't really care what you find or don't find suspect. You're one of the last people that I'd be concerned about what you thought...
---------- Post added January 9th, 2013 at 01:30 PM ----------
Actually, I don't feel that way at all, nor have I expressed such feelings. If we are to avoid further misunderstanding, I'd suggest that you read what I say and refrain from guessing what you think I'm saying. I don't mind being corrected for something I've said, but don't have much patience for something that someone thought I said, but didn't. The printed word doesn't have the advantages of visualization/sound (tone or body language), so we should both tread lightly before jumping to conclusions. If we are to continue the discussion, put aside such things like the 'victim card.' If you think it justified, quote what I've said and explain why you feel the way you do. I can then better understand what you mean. Some terminology is subject to interpretation and that only confuses and misdirects the conversation. Pete has his own self-made vocabulary and time is wasted on trying to understand the meaning. Let's use the common tongue of English.
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This may actually be the key to understanding the whole discussion.
Thal trains scientific divers -- divers who have to be able to perform certain duties to a high level of reproducibility. That's not me, drifting a Caribbean reef with a camera. DCBC was a commercial diver, where people have to be able to perform tasks under conditions where the rest of us would stay home. That has to color someone's attitude toward diving . . . and if somebody wants training from someone who approaches diving in those ways, they have the right instructors in those two.
Diving, for all of our students, for me, and for the vast majority of people with whom I dive, is done as a recreational activity. That means that enjoying it ("having fun") is a crucial part of the process . . . if we are not enjoying what we are doing, there is really no reason to do it. I have taken scuba training that wasn't fun -- luckily, I was far enough into the sport for my interest and enjoyment to survive that, but one of my classmates has done little or no diving since, and another took three months off after the bad class, because diving wasn't fun any more.
I'm sure there are people who don't want "fun and games" in training. I'm not sure, honestly, that I can describe my GUE, UTD or cave training as "fun and games". But when I looked at the big grins on the GUE Fundamentals students who shared the restaurant with us last weekend, I knew that the instructor had walked the proper line between intensity of instruction, and maintaining inspiration for the students. Where that balance lies is different, though, with a Fundies student, than it is with the person who walks off the street to a dive shop, having never done this before.
There is very bad dive instruction out there. But there are some good instructors participating in this thread, who simply see their goal as producing a diver who is capable of doing BEGINNER dives in their (the instructor's) environment, and making sure people have fun getting there. It's a completely different motive, and perhaps a completely different end that they are trying to reach, which may be why we always feel as though we are talking past one another.
Good example of what I was talking about above.
This is just all push and shove. Pete gets his tail up, Wayne bites it and lets him know on no uncertain terms who is the boss.
Let's make it a game then and rate it:
For cyber-muscle bulging : 8
For useful scuba content : 0
Score: Wayne 1; Pete 0; Scubaboard -1
For what it's worth, from everything I've ever read and heard, I think Cronin was a bit of a used-car salesman and I don't get the feeling that safety was really his concern. On the other hand, He's dead and PADI has evolved over the last 40-odd years. If we kept holding on to the past like this in other ways then we'd all still think that Germans were mass murdering Nazis and that anyone living the the southern US was a slave-owning rebel.
R..
OP
Perhaps you may feel differently, if I suggested that you were a liar...
Perhaps if you were a Jew in Hitler's Germany, or a Slave in the South, you might not support the Nazi party, or the KKK. One of the tragedies in life, is to have an experience and miss its meaning.
The organization you speak of has a history of the lowest Standards in the industry. I left in 1988 and the philosophy had been the same in the previous 22 years, so your "PADI has evolved over the last 40-odd years" statement is hardly accurate. I'm not saying that PADI hasn't changed. If it has and the changes are for the better, I'm truly pleased. From what I saw 25 years ago, the philosophy was taking a turn for the worse, but that's just my opinion.
As I've said, I can only comment on what I know. None of my information about PADI is recent, other than I've had access to their training manuals and texts. In the past I owned a PADI LDS and was well aware of their 'business philosophy.' You say that this has changed? Not to be difficult, but how would you know? Do you own a 5 Star Facility and are privy to their future direction? A PADI Instructor is not associated in any way with the corporate business of PADI Inc. Their Board meetings are confidential and profits undisclosed; or perhaps that has changed as well?
Please spare me a response that I'm bitter because PADI HQ told me to: cut my OW training time, stop including rescue, decrease pool time, increase profit and sell additional courses. As I told them, "What if they don't come back for more training?" "You have a Diver who hasn't a clue of how to assist his Buddy underwater and we claim to promote the Buddy System?" Some things don't change...
This is what makes it so suspect. Here, you have jumped to the wrong conclusion that I accused you of lying. In actuality, I merely wrote that your conclusions were suspect. This is precisely the methodology I think you used in jumping to conclusions about Cronin. I am certain that you sincerely believe that Cronin said all those things. However, I also believe that you may be sincerely wrong and did the same thing you did right here. You can't accept that I simply disagree with your conclusions. Instead, you have to make it personal and attempt a slap down as Diver0001 pointed out. When it comes to PADI and Cronin, you have established yourself as a POV Warrior. Even to the point of getting belligerent when people disagree about your conclusions based on your emotional demeanor. We get it: you think and preach that PADI is evil. Bitter: party of one. Maybe two if we include Thal. Knowing that about you, we can deduce that most of what you say about PADI will be tainted. If I am accusing you of anything I am accusing you only of bias. I doubt that many would disagree with me on this.
Am I the only person that thinks the last 10 (perhaps more) pages of this thread have been a complete waste of bandwidth? Despite the differences of opinion and penis-measuring going on I respect a lot of the opinions (and voices behind them) on both sides of this argument.
I think Lynne may have summed it up very well though. We have different goals in mind and therefore we require different training and different training methods. What other occupation/avocation has a one-size fits all methodology? I personally can't think of a single one... hell not even the military strictly adheres to the same training regimen year in and year out. Times change. Some aspects of training need to change with it.
The right amount of training is exactly what you (the individual diver) need to do the things you want/need to do. No more and no less. For a scientific diver I'm sure it's drastically different than me, a would-be rec diving bum. Does that make his needs wrong? Or mine? I don't think so.
I think Lynne may have summed it up very well though. We have different goals in mind and therefore we require different training and different training methods. What other occupation/avocation has a one-size fits all methodology? I personally can't think of a single one... hell not even the military strictly adheres to the same training regimen year in and year out. Times change. Some aspects of training need to change with it.
The right amount of training is exactly what you (the individual diver) need to do the things you want/need to do. No more and no less. For a scientific diver I'm sure it's drastically different than me, a would-be rec diving bum. Does that make his needs wrong? Or mine? I don't think so.
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