Diver Training: How much is enough?

[The Chairman]

Controversy is not against our ToS. Though it might anger you, having a different opinion is not against our ToS. If either of these upset you, then please unsubscribe from this thread. I don't recall any name calling in this thread, which would be against our ToS and I don't see any of the staff involved trying to moderate the thread to suit their own purposes. I think it's important for users to expose biases and agendas as they perceive them as long as they remain civil in doing so. However, once we are in a thread the individual staffers of ScubaBoard try to refrain from any moderation within it. We accept what the other staffers decide even if their actions offend us.

 

[Diver0001]

Controversy is not against our ToS.

Some days my thoughts come to me embedded or entangled on a constant swirling backdrop of music (weirdest damned thing, actually. It's like thinking creates music and listening to music impacts my emotions like too much light on eyes that were in the dark...... can't even write without it sounding like a lyric.. LOL ).

Getting to the point....today is one of those days and opening this thread brought back a passage from a song:

Followed the piper's sweet whistling
Guided down the path by the wrong hand
Close my eyes for the chance of a better view
Close my ears so I couldn't hear you

R..

P.S. Pete speaks the truth. This site is moderated with an even hand and moderators who are participating in a thread don't moderate their own contributions.

pling pling.

R..

---------- Post added January 10th, 2013 at 07:47 PM ----------

1. It got people into diving (many with poor fitness and swimming ability), thus increasing the market for the sale of diving equipment (the main reason); and
2. Divers had to take three courses rather than one; thus increasing PADI's profit 300%;
3. It increased market share by appealing to Clients that wanted to become certified easily and quickly (regardless of the quality of the actual deliverables).

To summarize, it lowered the necessary level of commitment required to get in to diving if you only wanted to do it casually.

And guess what..... Cronin hit the bullseye because there was a huge market for that.

In fact, he hit the bullyseye twice because he virtually single-handedly created the scuba market as we know it (in the face, I"m sure of enormous resistance from established "experts" who couldn't -- and some still can't -- make the paradigm shift). The bullseye is that PADI was responsible for freeing up a huge money pool for R&D on the part of equipment manufactures which meant that diving didn't just become accessible, it became safer -- as witnessed by a steady drop in fatal accidents after implementation, probably because manufacturers suddenly had the means to put better gear on the market.

(I don't know if that sentence is intelligible at all. Someone who understands what I meant please fix it for me)

In short: Two bullseyes. Diving became more accessible and safer at the same time.

You were right about one thing, Wayne. It WAS genius.

R..

 

[Peter Guy]

I like horses. I used to breed horses. I have held horses while they have been killed. I have watched one of my horses beat himself to death before I could kill him. I ride horses. I show horses. I organize and run horse shows.

Can we PLEASE stop beating this one to death?

That written, I went back to DCBC's original post which ended with the following questions -- and here, finally, are my answers:

I'm sure many of us have seen divers that they would not feel comfortable diving with. How prevalent is this?

Not very prevalent in my experience. I have met just one or two divers I with whom I wouldn't dive again. And they were ALL "experienced" divers who had bad attitudes.

Do people disregard much of what they were taught, or simply were they not taught how to dive safely to begin with?

Although perhaps a bit of both, my experience with "unsafe divers" were that they were merely "unsafe people" and their diving was merely an expression of themselves.

Has the "Diver certification industry" lowered the standards too far?

No.

Many may say that a diver (after their initial training) is encouraged to seek further instruction. On the other hand, I've maintained that there is no excuse to "certify" any diver that is a danger to himself and others at any time. Do you feel that a high percentage of new divers fall into the incompetent category?

No. My experience is that "a high percentage of new divers" are competent to dive in conditions similar to, or better than, the conditions in which they were taught.

Is this a reason why people abandon the Buddy system in favor of diving alone? (I know that I'll choose to dive solo in many situations if buddy competence is questionable).

Not in my experience. I'm not sure that I know anyone who has "abandon[ed] the Buddy system" but I do know people who have opted for many reasons to dive solo which is NOT the same thing.

Is recreational diving heading in the correct direction?

Who knows? The number of certs per year appears to have decreased over the last few years and the average age of divers appears to have increased. For the long term health of the industry, I'd say this isn't particularly good -- but for the short term health of dive sites, perhaps it is.

Should the direction be changed?

One hell of a good question and one that probably depends on one's view of what should the industry look like.

 

[boulderjohn]

Who knows? The number of certs per year appears to have decreased over the last few years and the average age of divers appears to have increased. For the long term health of the industry, I'd say this isn't particularly good -- but for the short term health of dive sites, perhaps it is.

I found these statistics from PADI world-wide that go through 2009. (I have no information on other agencies.)

They show that the number of PADI certifications rose steadily and rapidly in its early years, as you would expect, and they plateaued over the last decade studied. The variation from year to year over that decade has not varied significantly from year to year, with a little under a million new certifications a year. PADI's two biggest years for certifications were in 2007 and 2008.

I just did a search for tennis and golf, and found that the numbers for participation there are dropping quite a bit more than that. In my area, tennis courts sit empty where I used to have to wait my turn to play. Local golf courses are offering all kinds of discounts to get people to play, and I can walk on to play many of the nearby courses without a reservation on a Sunday or Saturday in mid summer, something unheard of a decade ago.

 

[shoredivr]

John, that last bit of research regarding golf and tennis is interesting. I wonder if people are sitting in front of screens instead.

 

[DaleC]

First, I've read posts here by some posters that claim a few like to look down on others; as a prelude for their own form of talking smack. Thal and DCBC present a perspective, that's all - snide comments don't alter their validity. If one wants to counter, then do it with intelligence, not feeble attempts at character assassination.

Second, I don't know if modern is "better" as some suggest - I would say it's "different" and give it credit where and when it's due. Is not learning tables "better"? Is allowing poor swimmers to dive "better". Is breaking course content into modules so that there is no one person responsible for learning continuity "better"?

I also don't believe it's intellectually honest to present dive education as always "fun and exciting". It isn't. It's admirable to strive to keep students engaged but some of it is mundane, that's just the way it is. But the mundane may save ones life, so it is important. Constantly pushing the fun element creates an addiction to water cooler moments that fosters a rejection of the simple repetitive OW diving that builds basic skills.

I also personally question the current trend to do the academic portion online or locally and the dives themselves in a tropical destination. I've seen this presented to non divers but never with the caveats that should go with it. It is often used to "sell" the non diver but they wind up practical learning in conditions that do not reflect their home locale. The tropical instructor is teaching to conditions present and the home instructor is absolved of responsibility, but the diver is left with a big experiencial gap when they return home and try to do a local dive. The solution is then that more training should be purchased but they are never told this before they sign up for the initial training. In some ways, when compared to other locally trained divers, they get short changed.

When was the last time you heard an instructor/salesman say:
"Why yes, you can take the academics here and when on vacation in Hawaii do your open water dives to get certified as a diver but when you return here you will need to take some more courses because learning in those waters will leave you woefully unprepared for what you will experience here".

No, what they say is:
"Why yes, you can take the academics here and when on vacation in Hawaii do your open water dives to get certified as a diver".

Claiming it is the divers responsibility to know better is pretty lame IMO. As is often said around here "you don't know what you don't know". Initial dive education is a big paradigm shift in which the non diver is pretty dependent on the guidance of the instructor.

I'm sure many of us have seen divers that they would not feel comfortable diving with. How prevalent is this?

Don't know. I can tell you I was buddied with someone who showed up at an altitude dive with rented gear, not knowing how to assemble it, not being able to don it, not knowing how to do a pre-dive check or being able to locate their own ditchable weight and barely being able to dive. I know someone else who bolted to the surface and got bent because they were taught never to surface with less than 500psi and the gauge went below that. I also remember a diver who descended to 20' in low vis but could not figure out how to re-ascend and sat there until we came along and helped them up.

Do people disregard much of what they were taught, or simply were they not taught how to dive safely to begin with? Has the "Diver certification industry" lowered the standards too far??
All of the people mentioned above were not arrogant thrill seekers, but they were under the mistaken impression they knew how to dive - who gave them that impression, a card, air and rented them the gear? How did that happen?

Many may say that a diver (after their initial training) is encouraged to seek further instruction. On the other hand, I've maintained that there is no excuse to "certify" any diver that is a danger to himself and others at any time. Do you feel that a high percentage of new divers fall into the incompetent category?
I believe they fall into the "shown a skill and demonstrated it once but not given enough time to re-enforce or develop those skills to basic proficiency" category.

Is this a reason why people abandon the Buddy system in favor of diving alone? (I know that I'll choose to dive solo in many situations if buddy competence is questionable).
I began solo diving early not because I felt my buddies were incompetent but (partly), because I found myself being drawn into potentially dangerous situations via trust me dives, follow me dives or just plain inattentiveness. I do not blame my buddies for that as I see a buddy team as a two way commitment and I failed in my own way just as much as they did either directly or by omission. Ultimately, I find controlling other people hard to do and when I solo I am able to follow my own, conservative plans completely. I trust myself more than I do someone else, especially a stranger.

Is recreational diving heading in the correct direction? Should the direction be changed?
I think recreational diving is meeting it's customers needs but I think a correction needs to be made to certification designations to more accurately define the conditions the diver can safely dive in:

Guided/supervised dives only
Resort diver (basically tropical)
Open water diver (basic or advanced).

Wouldn't that solve just about everything, be an honest description of ability attained, and yet allow divers to choose the conditions and level of training they want. Instead we try to equate the occasional DM led tropical diver with the Atlantic wreck diver and somehow suggest one certification covers both, along with diving kelp forests off the west coast and drift dives in Canada. That diving to 40' in the Red Sea is the same as diving to 40' in Lake Minnewanka when the ice has just come off.

 

[DCBC]

I went back to DCBC's original post which ended with the following questions -- and here, finally, are my answers...

After numerous personal posts of disagreement, I'm glad that you got around to answering my questions in Post 1. Although I disagree with your answers, I appreciate your opinion.

---------- Post added January 11th, 2013 at 08:05 AM ----------

First, I've read posts here by some posters that claim a few like to look down on others; as a prelude for their own form of talking smack. Thal and DCBC present a perspective, that's all - snide comments don't alter their validity. If one wants to counter, then do it with intelligence, not feeble attempts at character assassination....Claiming it is the divers responsibility to know better is pretty lame IMO. As is often said around here "you don't know what you don't know". Initial dive education is a big paradigm shift in which the non diver is pretty dependent on the guidance of the instructor.

I agree with your comments. Thanks for your input Dale.

 

[Diver0001]

Wayne, I know this is a sensitive point so please feel free to say 'no comment' but I know that you were CEO of CMAS Canada for about a year before leaving that post.

Can you tell us why you parted ways with them?

R..

 

[DaleC]

If one wants to counter, then do it with intelligence, not feeble attempts at character assassination.

Reflecting what I just wrote; I wonder what your intent is.

 

[The Chairman]

If one wants to counter, then do it with intelligence, not feeble attempts at character assassination.

Reflecting what I just wrote; I wonder what your intent is.

I am beginning to wonder that myself. Are you in the habit of talking to yourself in a thread?