Diver Training: How much is enough?

[mala]

I remember driving through Snowmageddon a couple of years ago on my way to the Baltimore Dive Show.

Me: Why are we the only car doing 65 MPH???
Elena: I don't know, Why ARE we the the only car doing 65 MPH???????

ha,
we get that in the uk all the time.
usually if you flash your lights enough the slow moving 65mph traffic will move over and yet everyone else pass.

 

[drrich2]

The conflict comes when trying to clump those two very different camps under one certification. It either gives the sense of shorting the comprehensive diver or over-burdening the vacation diver.

...or just accept that all divers are not trying to achieve the same things and offer them what they want under the appropriate label.

Would it still be appropriate to suggest that the basic license prepares people to drive either a moped or a Ford F-350 pulling a travel trailer.

Let's run with your example. I suspect that in your area people learning to drive probably do so in a car (or truck), in easy to perhaps moderate traffic conditions. I doubt they have to pull a trailer, boat trailer, etc..., to get that license. And it's expected they will improve their skills before they try.

Not everybody on the road is an equally capable driver, or aspires to drive the same challenging conditions, and yet most of them operate on the same basic drivers license.

Let's say someone modified the PADI Scuba Diver rating criteria to be the following:

1.) Certified to dive with either a dive professional or an experienced certified diver (because some of these currently marginal OW folks dive with spouses, like my wife does with me in Bonaire, not dive professionals).

2.) Certified to dive up to 80 feet in tropical, high viz., low current waters (since Caribbean charters often hit 60 - 70, and that current 40 limit isn't going to cut it).

3.) Certified for minimal current waters with at least 20 foot viz., or drift diving in Cozumel-like conditions under supervision of a dive professional.

That could be done. But to what end? If it's to warn the ignorant, just educate them better about diving hazards & their own limitations.

Seems to me the main point of such a certification is to force marginal people to only dive under strict guidelines, and take the freedom to decide away from them. Which may be what some want to do.

Richard.

 

[boulderjohn]

ha,
we get that in the uk all the time.
usually if you flash your lights enough the slow moving 65mph traffic will move over and yet everyone else pass.

You have a very different law in the UK. It is illegal to block traffic in the passing lanes. It is also illegal to pass in the inner lanes. In America, blocking traffic in the passing lanes is a way of life; people delight in forcing faster traffic to weave in and out of traffic, passing in whatever lane gives them an opportunity. Despite the obvious safety advantage of your laws, we in America delight in our constitutional right to screw things up as much as we possibly can.

A friend of mine was driving in England one day and saw the depressing sight of the flashing police lights behind him. He realized with dismay that he was speeding. He pulled over, and he did get a ticket. It was not for speeding, though. He was ticketed because he was blocking faster traffic in the passing lane.

 

[The Chairman]

ha,
we get that in the uk all the time.
usually if you flash your lights enough the slow moving 65mph traffic will move over and yet everyone else pass.

You missed the point. It was snowing and I was going way too fast for conditions. Being mostly from Florida, I have rarely driven in snow. The other cars were doing 45 or less. I immediately slowed down to match traffic. Mind you, I had taken a wrong turn missing the 500 car back up so we made it to Baltimore that night. The next day was declared a "snow day" and the city of Baltimore closed.

 

[BDSC]

Interesting that you have to ask for moderation on a thread that has at least 2 Moderators, a Board Guide, and the Chairman himself.

Now I'm seeing more clearly why hh asked for moderation. Man has this ever gotten off topic. But still an interesting read. Anyone want to debate split fins vs paddles, BP/W vs Jackets, or maybe Spare Air vs Pony bottles?

 

[NAM001]

Who ever missed they point,, of the original driving comment you made,,, has never had a wife.

You missed the point. It was snowing and I was going way too fast for conditions. Being mostly from Florida, I have rarely driven in snow. The other cars were doing 45 or less. I immediately slowed down to match traffic. Mind you, I had taken a wrong turn missing the 500 car back up so we made it to Baltimore that night. The next day was declared a "snow day" and the city of Baltimore closed.

 

[DaleC]

Seems to me the main point of such a certification is to force marginal people to only dive under strict guidelines, and take the freedom to decide away from them. Which may be what some want to do.

Richard.

Not really, it's being done via the backdoor already with the modularization and specialty model of instruction. Basic OW barely trains one to dive in benign conditions unassisted - which probably all vacation divers really need. They don't need to read tables, tide charts or swim long distances against strong current etc..
Now, want to be more independent? take AOW. Want to go deeper? take Deep diver, gain better buoyancy? PPB. Look at wrecks? Altitude dive...

Other agencies are also changing this indirectly. GUE and UTD both offer OW training but they make damn sure to differentiate themselves from the OW you might gain from the mainstream agencies. Why? Because they churn out more comprehensively trained divers. Those two agencies certainly don't want to equate their OW divers as being on par with all OW divers training wise.

I don't get why this would be an issue - it's a win win for everyone.

The diver gets what they want - as Pete states, most rec/resort divers don't need/want to learn tables. Don't want to get bogged down in theory and would be perfectly happy to gain a "resort diver" cert if that's what it allowed them to do.

Other divers who may enter more challenging conditions may want a more comprehensive course. they may actually need to look at tables for dive planning, current or tide charts etc... why not offer them what they want and call their cert "comprehensive diver" or something.

Upgrading from resort to comprehensive could be done in modular form, just as it is now. It's just the labeling that leaves little doubt as to the training one has and conditions one is prepared for.

Going back to the person who showed up at the altitude lake not knowing how to assemble or use gear. Entirely possible when one goes from a warm water resort where DM's assist with the gear and one uses a 3mm suit and 3lb's of lead (my rig). Which is what that person did. They did 7-8 dives on vacation and, being certified OW divers, decided to rent gear and join their friends at the lake. Except of course, they now had 2, 7mm layers of neoprene, thick gloves, 30lb's of lead and no DM to assist them. Did their previous training prepare them for that.

We could blame them for not knowing better or we could look at a system that labels both forms of diving the same.

Resort diving and other forms of diving (like cold water) are not the same as Boulder John might suggest. The equipment is different and more cumbersome. Try doffing and donning a rig in cold water exposure gear and then in warm water gear - here's a video of me doing some nonsense in warm water gear that I would not do in cold (I was really trying to put together a video of some vintage skills but that didn't work out so well). Even removing a mask is different. In WW it's an inconvenience - in CW it can be excruciatingly painful and disorienting. Good luck below the thermocline in Chilliwack lake if all your mask removal training has been done in swimming pools and Cozumel.

[video=youtube;QpsR3EBysg8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpsR3EBysg8&list=UU5zvhnU0XYpf_cadpYJYkhQ& index=7[/video]

 

[DCBC]

...The current de facto rec. diving system in the U.S. largely requires a cert. to get air fills, use scuba quarries and go on charter boat trips. I think most of us (consciously or not) advocate some measure of requiring education/demonstrated proficiency before 'allowing' people to dive (without a basic OW course, lung expansion injuries, buoyancy control & much more are unknown to potential divers, so they lack informed decisional capacity).

As there is no legal requirement, what you see is that private land owners, dive shops and dive charters are asking for certification in an effort to mitigate their responsibility. This works out fine until a court of law decides that the 'standard being used' is insufficient for the diving environment.

The question is, at what point to you relinquish control and let the 'student' decide when, where & how he/she will dive?

Again it comes down to what is reasonable... If you dive in my area, I've suggested that what is required is different than Bonaire. If the same standard is applied to here (where the training is being undertaken) and there's an accident, it's likely that the certification standard will be found insufficient (as it has already been in Quebec). In a Society where everyone is trying to cover their own derrière, it would be more realistic to change the standard. Many certification agencies have recognized this allowing the Instructor to make all reasonable changes. This maximizes safety and arguably reduces liability.

 

[jar546]

You have a very different law in the UK. It is illegal to block traffic in the passing lanes. It is also illegal to pass in the inner lanes. In America, blocking traffic in the passing lanes is a way of life; people delight in forcing faster traffic to weave in and out of traffic, passing in whatever lane gives them an opportunity. Despite the obvious safety advantage of your laws, we in America delight in our constitutional right to screw things up as much as we possibly can.

A friend of mine was driving in England one day and saw the depressing sight of the flashing police lights behind him. He realized with dismay that he was speeding. He pulled over, and he did get a ticket. It was not for speeding, though. He was ticketed because he was blocking faster traffic in the passing lane.

Since we are thread drifting, I would like to add that Pennsylvania has a law that prohibits the use of the passing lane unless you ate passing. It does get enforced but not often enough.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[DCBC]

...in CW it can be excruciatingly painful and disorienting. Good luck below the thermocline in Chilliwack lake if all your mask removal training has been done in swimming pools and Cozumel.

Dam that lake's cold; nice and clear with lots of depth. I use to do some of my Advanced course dives there. A great place to do uw navigation; hold 50' and shoot some transits. It's like hanging over an abyss, close to shore...