Diver Training: How much is enough?

[jar546]

Not really, it's being done via the backdoor already with the modularization and specialty model of instruction. Basic OW barely trains one to dive in benign conditions unassisted - which probably all vacation divers really need. They don't need to read tables, tide charts or swim long distances against strong current etc..
Now, want to be more independent? take AOW. Want to go deeper? take Deep diver, gain better buoyancy? PPB. Look at wrecks? Altitude dive...

Other agencies are also changing this indirectly. GUE and UTD both offer OW training but they make damn sure to differentiate themselves from the OW you might gain from the mainstream agencies. Why? Because they churn out more comprehensively trained divers. Those two agencies certainly don't want to equate their OW divers as being on par with all OW divers training wise.

I don't get why this would be an issue - it's a win win for everyone.

The diver gets what they want - as Pete states, most rec/resort divers don't need/want to learn tables. Don't want to get bogged down in theory and would be perfectly happy to gain a "resort diver" cert if that's what it allowed them to do.

Other divers who may enter more challenging conditions may want a more comprehensive course. they may actually need to look at tables for dive planning, current or tide charts etc... why not offer them what they want and call their cert "comprehensive diver" or something.

Upgrading from resort to comprehensive could be done in modular form, just as it is now. It's just the labeling that leaves little doubt as to the training one has and conditions one is prepared for.

Going back to the person who showed up at the altitude lake not knowing how to assemble or use gear. Entirely possible when one goes from a warm water resort where DM's assist with the gear and one uses a 3mm suit and 3lb's of lead (my rig). Which is what that person did. They did 7-8 dives on vacation and, being certified OW divers, decided to rent gear and join their friends at the lake. Except of course, they now had 2, 7mm layers of neoprene, thick gloves, 30lb's of lead and no DM to assist them. Did their previous training prepare them for that.

We could blame them for not knowing better or we could look at a system that labels both forms of diving the same.

Resort diving and other forms of diving (like cold water) are not the same as Boulder John might suggest. The equipment is different and more cumbersome. Try doffing and donning a rig in cold water exposure gear and then in warm water gear - here's a video of me doing some nonsense in warm water gear that I would not do in cold (I was really trying to put together a video of some vintage skills but that didn't work out so well). Even removing a mask is different. In WW it's an inconvenience - in CW it can be excruciatingly painful and disorienting. Good luck below the thermocline in Chilliwack lake if all your mask removal training has been done in swimming pools and Cozumel.

[video=youtube;QpsR3EBysg8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpsR3EBysg8&list=UU5zvhnU0XYpf_cadpYJYkhQ& index=7[/video]

Looks like there are training opportunities to fit everyone and the market is taking care of itself. Want to get comprehensive training? Go to agency A. Want to get minimal training and still get a cert card? No problem, go to agency B. We even have an agency somewhere in between. Want to learn more about the area you are going to dive in? No problem, there is a course for that called discover local diving. Want to go deeper or learn tech diving? Yes, there are multiple options for that too. Basically it is what it is and regardless of opinions, the market will always dictate. After all, it takes money to make the world go round as they say.

You can offer all the comprehensive training you want but the best thing any diver can do to improve their skills is to dive. If you spend 100 hours training someone to a very high standard and they only dive once a year for 2 dives while on vacation, they may never have the skills needed since they don't practice enough. Take another diver who took a resort course then got the bug and dives every week year round and see who is the better, more skilled diver after a year or two. You need to dive to become a better diver. The more you dive, the more situations you are exposed to and the better you become. We just can't control the bad habits of divers, and all sorts of very competently trained divers have bad habits.


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[DCBC]

...Basically it is what it is and regardless of opinions, the market will always dictate. After all, it takes money to make the world go round as they say. ...You can offer all the comprehensive training you want but the best thing any diver can do to improve their skills is to dive. If you spend 100 hours training someone to a very high standard and they only dive once a year for 2 dives while on vacation, they may never have the skills needed since they don't practice enough.

What it comes down to is the level of competence that the Instructor and Student find acceptable in the conditions where the diving will take place. The lower the bar, the greater the risk. the higher the bar the lower the risk. Somewhere in-between is a 'reasonable level of acceptability.' Who is to say what this is? I believe it depends upon the individuals concerned and sometimes (in the case of injury or death) the Civil Courts...

We just can't control the bad habits of divers, and all sorts of very competently trained divers have bad habits.

When in the Navy, I never dived with another Diver who had 'bad habits.' When I was commercial diving, I can't say that any of the Diver's I've dove with, or that worked for me had 'bad habits.' The only 'bad habits' I've witnessed, have been recreational divers who were either inadequately trained, or chose to forget what they were taught. I believe that it was most likely the former.

Obviously I can't say how my past students currently dive unless they're with me (and I've seen no indications that they dive differently). Although it's possible that some may have forgotten what they were taught, I suspect that rusty skills would be more likely the cause.

As an Instructor, all I can do is insist that the Student learn properly and meet the Standards of the Agency and the Instructor. What bothers me is when the Student isn't adequately prepared and is certified anyway. Although we can't control everything in the Student's future, we do have control when the diver is certified. In no situation should this be before they are competent to dive safely in the normal training conditions...

 

[boulderjohn]

Not really, it's being done via the backdoor already with the modularization and specialty model of instruction. Basic OW barely trains one to dive in benign conditions unassisted - which probably all vacation divers really need. They don't need to read tables, tide charts or swim long distances against strong current etc..
Now, want to be more independent? take AOW. Want to go deeper? take Deep diver, gain better buoyancy? PPB. Look at wrecks? Altitude dive...

Other agencies are also changing this indirectly. GUE and UTD both offer OW training but they make damn sure to differentiate themselves from the OW you might gain from the mainstream agencies. Why? Because they churn out more comprehensively trained divers. Those two agencies certainly don't want to equate their OW divers as being on par with all OW divers training wise.

Here are the UTD standards. The OW course starts on page 34. It is shorter and less comprehensive than PADI's, and they have more levels you can take for continuing education than PADI does.

If you go to Extreme Exposure in Florida, the headquarters of GUE, you will find that almost all of their OW students start with the PADI program and then progress to GUE.

---------- Post added January 12th, 2013 at 10:08 AM ----------

Resort diving and other forms of diving (like cold water) are not the same as Boulder John might suggest. The equipment is different and more cumbersome. Try doffing and donning a rig in cold water exposure gear and then in warm water gear - here's a video of me doing some nonsense in warm water gear that I would not do in cold (I was really trying to put together a video of some vintage skills but that didn't work out so well). Even removing a mask is different. In WW it's an inconvenience - in CW it can be excruciatingly painful and disorienting. Good luck below the thermocline in Chilliwack lake if all your mask removal training has been done in swimming pools and Cozumel.

Dam that lake's cold; nice and clear with lots of depth. I use to do some of my Advanced course dives there.

Different situations require different degrees of adjustment. In my case, it is no big deal. In this case, it would be.

Going back to the driving analogy, a driver's license prepares you for the vast majority of driving experiences, but ti does not prepare you or all diving experiences. You will want additional training before driving in the Daytona 500. That seems like common sense.

That is why students are told that they have been prepared for conditions similar to those they have trained in, and they should seek additional training before diving in other conditions. That concept is part of the testing. I am having a very hard time seeing what is wrong with that. It almost seems as if you are arguing that the only place students should be allowed to get certified is in the dead of winter on a storm-tossed sea in the arctic circle.

 

[DaleC]

Only if those are the conditions you dive in. I have explicitly stated that if you only want to dive tropical destinations, your training should reflect that. But I've just added that your certification should as well.

Are the students who take the OW training in your area told explicitly, that while the certification they get "allows" them to dive everywhere, the experience they get is limited or...

as I suspect happens around here; are they told the referral system is an easy, fun way to get their SCUBA certification. With little emphasis on the limits of their experience.

I think what happens, unless the instructor is thoughtful and proactive - the student gets a certification card and believes they are ready to go. That's how they wind up at the local lake unable to take care of themselves, and also importantly, others (according to the buddy system).

 

[The Chairman]

I think what happens, unless the instructor is thoughtful and proactive - the student gets a certification card and believes they are ready to go. That's how they wind up at the local lake unable to take care of themselves, and also importantly, others (according to the buddy system).

Shenanigans. I have yet to hear an instructor, even ones I consider to be less than adequate, fail to tell their students to dive within their cert level and that includes only those conditions which are equal to or better than the ones they are training in. Certainly, there are better ways to get students to accept that there are limits they should adhere to, but the real problem is the "the rules don't apply to me" mentality that permeates society. Instructors aren't immune to this and we set a bad example when we violate our own rules like yo-yo diving.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think what happens, unless the instructor is thoughtful and proactive - the student gets a certification card and believes they are ready to go. That's how they wind up at the local lake unable to take care of themselves, and also importantly, others (according to the buddy system).

Shenanigans. I have yet to hear an instructor, even ones I consider to be less than adequate, fail to tell their students to dive within their cert level and that includes only those conditions which are equal to or better than the ones they are training in.

This will be the third time I have said it.

It is in the PADI instructional content. It is in both module #3 and Module #5. It is in the required Knowledge Reviews. It is on the test.

There is no need for the instructor to be thoughtful or pro-active. The content is required. The only way it could be otherwise would be if the instructor blatantly told the students it was not true and they could ignore that part of the instruction--every time it is repeated.

 

[The Chairman]

This will be the third time I have said it.

Only 18 more to go! Isn't that what they said? 21 repetitions before it really sticks?

 

[boulderjohn]

Only 18 more to go! Isn't that what they said? 21 repetitions before it really sticks?

Actually, Egstrom (talking about buddy breathing) said it required 17-21 repetitions done correctly--not 17-21 failed attempts.

 

[The Chairman]

Actually, Egstrom (talking about buddy breathing) said it required 17-21 repetitions done correctly--not 17-21 failed attempts.

Read my post again... I'm saying the same thing. This is said so many times during Scuba Instruction that it's not a matter of not covering it. We cover it just fine, but there is something lost when they see us doing stuff we tell them not to do. How many times has an instructor used a tale of daring do to impress his students? How often do students see the instructor bend the rules during class? It's no wonder that they are confused. "Dive as I teach and not how I dive" just won't cut it.

 

[DaleC]

Really. I did my OW with my best friend at the time. I did the knowledge reviews at home ahead of the class as I was told. He breezed in, without ever having cracked the book and with all his knowledge reviews blank. We both passed the course.

The problem here is that the instructors participating are probably the ones who are dedicated and trying to offer the best instruction they can so their view of what happens is probably skewed towards that POV.

And, if it were all being covered; how did that diver who showed up at the lake get both air and a complete rental set. The shop knew they hadn't done any cold water diving, had only a handful of dives, yet had no problem taking their money - because, according to the card, they are certified divers. Where are the checks and balances.

That person did not have a death wish, and was not particularly arrogant - they honestly believed they were a scuba diver and did not fully appreciate the challenges they were about to face. That fresh out of OW, who's fault was that.