Diver Training: How much is enough?

[The Chairman]

And, if it were all being covered; how did that diver who showed up at the lake get both air and a complete rental set.

That would be an issue with the people who gave him the gear as well as the diver.

The fact is, we are mostly a self regulated industry and a lot of the regulation is done by the end user. Ultimately, it's the diver's responsibility to dive in a safe manner.

 

[DaleC]

I do believe that Pete; in fact it's what I base most of my diving on. I do what I do, often against established norms, but take complete responsibility for it. I like to think that is informed responsibility, based on a lot of study and thought.

I am a little more forgiving of the new diver though, as they do not have the experience to make informed decisions - they largely go off what they were recently taught and what their instructor tells them. That puts a big burden on what is being taught, and the quality of instruction.

I hope you also realize that for some points I agree with what you have said. I think for the average vacation/resort diver (which I think makes up the majority of divers today) learning things like tables and tide/current charts isn't required. Those divers will overwhelmingly use computers, not plan their own dives and the charter/captain/DM will almost always consider environmental conditions for them.

Where we differ is that the cert that covers that diver also covers the diver who dives in my locale. 37-45 F water, thick exposure suits 20-40lb's of lead, limited vis etc... I question whether one introductory course can cover those two extremes without over burdening one diver and under preparing another.

We already have modular education, OW AOW MD specialties etc... so labeling differing levels of certs isn't an issue in itself. I just think the labels could be more accurately descriptive. It still allows trainers to sell instruction, it still allows divers to dive. But it more accurately describes what the diver is actually trained for.

I don't think it's that radical a concept.

 

[drrich2]

I think for the average vacation/resort diver (which I think makes up the majority of divers today) learning things like tables and tide/current charts isn't required.

Out of curiosity, what level of cert. do you think should require learning tables?

At least in the U.S. market it seems the overwhelming majority of people use computers, not just vacation divers or resort divers, but avid enthusiasts.

My frame of reference is PADI OW, AOW, Nitrox, Deep & Rescue, & SDI Solo. I have never taken a technical diving course or any coursework to become a professional scuba educator. I own tables (air, EAN 32 & Ean 36) for quick reference if I want to get a rough idea how much NDL time I'd have at a given depth, but I almost never dive square profiles or with a rigid plan requiring me to calculate it out. In SDI Solo we find our SAC & learn to calculate estimated gas usage for a planned dive, but even then, don't require tables. My point is, there may be common levels of scuba certification where tables proficiency is needful, so I'm asking.

After all, ScubaBoard has seen some long, heated debates over whether tables should be taught in basic OW courses, and I wonder whether & when people would add them. I trained in '05 & certified in '06, & we learned to use tables back then.

Richard.

 

[TMHeimer]

drrich2, Yeah, the debates about tables in OW class are endless. One arguement against them is even though people not that long ago (us) were trained with them, many of those people never use them now, especially after buying the computer. I do think it is a good idea for OW students to be exposed to them if only just to get some visual idea of the limits a computer is based on (even if they are not actually taught to use tables). While in DM class we went through all the physics, dive theory and physiology of diving. After that our instructor asked us if we now viewed our personal diving differently since we knew (all?) the reasons why we could get DCS or have other problems. I thought "No. When I learned tables in OW I knew HOW we could get the BENDS"--that thing I had heard about as a kid. I honestly believe my approach to dive safety back then was the same as it is now. I just know some of the "whys".

 

[The Chairman]

There's a lot of emphasis on what certs "allow" you to do. There are no Scuba police. You aren't going to be pulled over for skipping your safety stop. When I got into canoeing in High School, I remember a lot of people were horrified that I did not have the YMCA cert or even the canoeing merit badge. I was told how thorough and tough it was and frankly, I just wanted to paddle. It took 250 miles to get the j-stroke down to a nuance. All in all, I am just shy of 5,000 miles in the seat of a canoe. I can shoot rapids, navigate the Gulf of Mexico and even brave the Atlantic at night. You can bet my canoe will be going where I want it too, and I won't be bouncing side to side, taking the scenic route as we called it. As rigorous as it was made out to be, I doubt that any but a handful of people who actually have the YMCA cert could match my experiences or my skill in a canoe. The certs don't make you smart. They don't give you permission. They don't grant experience. They are nothing but a license to learn. They tell us that you know what you don't know and will be circumspect about how and where you dive. They are only worth the plastic they are printed on other than that.

 

[DaleC]

Out of curiosity, what level of cert. do you think should require learning tables?

Personally, I think being familiar with the tables comes into play when one begins planning their own dives. I own three sets of tables, PADI, USN and DCIEM. I also understand the 120 rule and have a working knowledge of old school guesstimating tank times for general depths. Understanding how these were derived, and the presumptions behind the values, I find helpful, not a hindrance. Just as one has to understand that different computers will spit out different values for the same dive. I wonder how many rec computer users understand the theory behind their particular computers algorithm.

Yes, you can plan a dive on a computer, even repetitive dives I suppose; but at some point there it's hard to justify not knowing how to simply look at a table and extrapolate what is going on.

Hence, I don't believe vacation/type divers need to know that much about tables because they don't really plan their own dives (not meant in a negative way).

 

[NAM001]

This is a very good point you make about vacationers and not needing tables. Even I when on a cruise do not question the dive plan of the guided drift dives that are provided. drifting 40 min at 40-50 ft raises no flags for me. but i can only say that because of having prior table skills. 120 rule works very well for me wehen checking for flags to a plan.

Personally, I think being familiar with the tables comes into play when one begins planning their own dives. I own three sets of tables, PADI, USN and DCIEM. I also understand the 120 rule and have a working knowledge of old school guesstimating tank times for general depths. Understanding how these were derived, and the presumptions behind the values, I find helpful, not a hindrance. Just as one has to understand that different computers will spit out different values for the same dive. I wonder how many rec computer users understand the theory behind their particular computers algorithm.

Yes, you can plan a dive on a computer, even repetitive dives I suppose; but at some point there it's hard to justify not knowing how to simply look at a table and extrapolate what is going on.

Hence, I don't believe vacation/type divers need to know that much about tables because they don't really plan their own dives (not meant in a negative way).

 

[Diver0001]

Out of curiosity, what level of cert. do you think should require learning tables?

I have nothing against the tables but they have become antiquated due to the advent of reliable, low-cost computers and should be retired. The use of a computer, and learning how to plan and dive with a computer, should be required and tables should be optional.

In the PADI system, we're told to do one or the other. For the time being I'm doing both but I do tell my students that in my opinion they are better off buying a computer.

I also have no issue with teaching tables or going into a lot of depth about deco theory if someone is interested in learning it but the new reality to me is that making sure students--especially entry level students--are competent with using a computer is priority #1.

As for your question, obviously once you get in a situation where you might need to teach the tables then you should already have learned them AND (and this is the crux) have some experience using them. In my personal case I made about my first 600 or so dives using tables and I still make quite a few dives using just a bottom timer. Ideally, you'd want instructors who are teaching tables to have that kind of experience (although 600 dives worth is maybe a bit much). The point being that you want the instructor to have a pretty good idea of the tips-and-tricks and what you can do wrong using them.

The younger generation won't have that experience using the tables so I would suggest that they're better off teaching what they know.... so to me, tables are quickly becoming a historical curiosity, but since we, as divers, often have trouble making paradigm shifts it will be some time before we totally let go.

R..

---------- Post added January 13th, 2013 at 01:00 PM ----------

By the way, I recently went diving with a group of GUE divers and the way GUE deals with tables, no-deco limits and surface intervals is vastly superior to anything else I've seen up to now. They don't have an air table and I'm not sure if there has ever been any research about how their tables perform with long chains of repetitive dives over multiple days but they're very easy to understand and use.

R..

 

[DCBC]

Instructors aren't immune to this and we set a bad example when we violate our own rules like yo-yo diving.

Perhaps you might explain to me (after already asking you to do so numerous times) the 'Science' behind this claim. There are none that I'm aware of in-which yo-yo diving (within the parameters set-out by the tables and the safe recommended diving envelope of an OW Diver) has been the cause of DCS.

Pete, because you make such a statement, doesn't make it valid. How about a little bit of substantiation other than just restating your beliefs? I'd be satisfied with just 1 case of DCS that has been attributed to "yo-yo diving by a OW Diver" (at any time in history, in any geographic location world-wide)...

 

[Diver0001]

Actually Wayne, since we're on the topic of yo-yo diving (or zig-zag profiles), do you have any recollection regarding how the advice to avoid those things got raised to the status of "best practice"?

R..