Diver Death in Cayman

[Riger]

I'm not, and I'm sure others are not willing to place blame on ANYONE, until all facts are known.

That is so funny. Ironically, there is one verifiable fact in this thread and that is that probably half the contributers have already placed the blame squarely on the diver or the DM or between them and some others. You really need to read some of the stuff on the thread.

Best Regards
Richard

 

[JCAT]

That's so funny. There is one verifiable fact in this thread and that is that probably half the contributers have already placed the blame squarely on the diver or the DM or between them and some others. You really need to read some of the stuff on the thread.

Best Regards
Richard

Oh I agree completely. More than half have taken the "The Dm/DiveOp/Training Agency lied and people died" stance. However, there are a few, myself included, who are not as quick to render judgment before more is known.

cheers

 

[Dtaine]

Now, think back to YOUR first dives post cert, the very first few dives, where you glad the boat had a dive master, or one that was called a DM, onboard because you felt it would add some measure of safety to your dive and that the person leading the dive would take you to a site that was not dangerous?? be honest.

Let's see, looking back at my logbook and my first dives post certification. Hmmm, those were in a quarry so no DM there. Well, maybe I got lucky, the first dives I did with a divemaster were long enough after my certification that I was already reasonably comfortable in the water.

Again, the questions lingers without an answer in this thread, what are the duties, what level of reasonable care, should a DM have to a brand new diver on a dive boat and WHY do Dive Ops put a person called a Dive Master ON a dive boat?

If Dive Ops put a person on a dive boat that is called a Dive Master but is in fact NOT trained as such, is THAT fraud and why do they do that?

It would help if the dive pros in this thread not dance around these questions. Thanks in advance. It would help the thread and clear up a lot of misconceptions.

Not a dive "pro" but I'll answer anyway.

Well do you want an opinion as to whether it's fraud legally, or whether it's deceptive. Because while it might be deceptive to call somebody a Divemaster who isn't trained as such, in many places it probably isn't illegal. I'm not saying that would justify it at all.

As far as the level of care, I think that depends on what's been worked out between the divers and the dive op before hand. If the diver wants somebody whose going to check their gauges and herd the group throughout the dive then that needs to be made explicitly clear beforehand.

I've noticed that the divemaster, after it was realized the diver was missing, asked the OP "Where's your buddy?". If I'm interpreting that correctly it seems to me that the DM was not acting as a buddy towards this diver (again, not saying he shouldn't have picked a better site), but rather guiding him as part of the group. That to me puts more responsibility on the diver than the DM (again, the site chosen may indeed be a contributing factor).

This poll: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...64678-poll-about-divemaster-expectations.html gives a small sampling of what people on here expect, perhaps it would be good to have another similar poll.

 

[pilot fish]

Did any of that occur on the boat in this incident? Freaked out Willie might have done a better job than this Dive "Guide"

Well now that is a stretch. If you maintain a person on the boat, they do not necessarily need to be a DM, but they need to know how to operate a bopat safely, how to perform a surface rescue as well as many other things such as perform CPR, administer O2 etc.).

Freaked out Willie may or may not fit that bill.

 

[Dtaine]

Did you dive on your own or have a buddy that had dove that quarry before? The deceased did not have a buddy so had arranged to dive with DM as his bud, as per OP

My first buddies were also just as inexperienced. The OP also stated that the DM asked her "where's your buddy?" and was leading the GROUP, so no, I don't think the DM was his buddy. See the quote below.

The DM took the rest of the divers as a group. No one knew anyone at that point we were all new to each other except the married couple from San Diego and I don't know if they did buddy checks or not. They were part of the DM's group. Key word GROUP.

So how much have you been paying attention pilot fish, really?

Then all that is is newbie specualtion.

Are you trying to pick a fight?

All you've done is pose another set of questions and qualifications, not answers. Try again?

Actually, I gave my honest opinion onto whether or not it was fraud, and stated that the level of care a divemaster has towards a new diver depends on what that diver and the dive op work out before the dive.

Those are answers.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Did any of that occur on the boat in this incident? Freaked out Willie might have done a better job than this Dive "Guide"

Are you under the impression the dramatics are helping your posts get taken seriously? FWIW, I agree with you on most (if not all points) but some posts I can't even take you seriously on. You are so hell bent on blaming this DM rather than stating what would or would not help, that you are losing focus.

Someone stated that a DM on the boat was a better idea that one in the water (for the reasons they stated). You claimed it was not because freaked out Willie could do it. I commented that only if this Willie character had certain qualifications and you come back to assaulting the DM in this real life scenario. It does not help.

 

[pilot fish]

My first buddies were also just as inexperienced.

Well, since you are THAT inexperienced,That is very honest, is it safe to say you might need some more dive experience before you can answer any of this with a reasonable degree of accuracy?

Are you trying to pick a fight?

No, just show you what went wrong on this fatal dive and who's fault I *think* it iwas and how to avoid this in the future.

Actually, I gave my honest opinion onto whether or not it was fraud, and stated that the level of care a divemaster has towards a new diver depends on what that diver and the dive op work out before the dive.

Those are answers.

No, those are more questions. Are you saying every brand new diver must work out a special deal with dive op pre dive and that there is no prescribed level of care industry wide, as dictated by dive agencies? Try again.

 

[Dtaine]

Well, since you are THAT inexperienced,That is very honest, is it safe to say you might need some more dive experience before you can answer any of this with a reasonable degree of accuracy?

Well I did point out an inaccuracy in YOUR post.

BTW, by making this personal, it just reflects poorly on your character.

No, just show you what went wrong on this fatal dive and who's fault I *think* it iwas and how to avoid this in the future.

You obviously have not read all my posts, I've clearly stated that the DM could well have a responsibility in this divers death. Unlike you, I'm just not willing to blame the DM for the majority of the death since it is likely a result of diver error.

No, those are more questions. Are you saying every brand new diver must work out a special deal with dive op pre dive and that there is no prescribed level of care industry wide, as dictated by dive agencies? Try again.

If they want to be babysat they should work that out beforehand, that's what I'm saying.

 

[Dtaine]

The DM took the rest of the divers as a group. No one knew anyone at that point we were all new to each other except the married couple from San Diego and I don't know if they did buddy checks or not. They were part of the DM's group. Key word GROUP.

OK, sorry that you feel my posts lack the proper gravity. I assure that is not my intention. Apologies. Please, help me out here, what is the function and obligation of a Dive Master to a brand new diver while both are UW, especially if the DM and newbie are buddies, as stated by OP?

I'll point it out again, the OP stated that the DM led the divers as a group. That does not mean the DM and the diver were buddies.

And this is why people feel your posts lack gravity.

 

[ScubaSteve]

OK, sorry that you feel my posts lack the proper gravity. I assure that is not my intention. Apologies.

Not looking for an apology....just trying to help you understand some of the reasons why people are not taking you seriously here.

Please, help me out here, what is the function and obligation of a Dive Master to a brand new diver while both are UW

You asked for this information to come from a Pro so I will not answer that as all I would be stating is my opinion which closely mirrors yours.

especially if the DM and newbie are buddies, as stated by OP?

That I call a TRAP. If you read back all 800+ posts, the OP has also VERY clearly stated that there was in fact NO BUDDY TEAMS ARRANGED with the only exception of her and the fiance because they did that themselves. She also clearly stated that there was no buddy checks done at all which kind of goes hand in hand with having no buddy.