Diver Death in Cayman

[Thalassamania]

and I have been diving for 2 years and regularly dive to 165' and deco with 2 mixes. so what does your 20 years in have to do with anything? If you have never been kicked out of the nest, you don't know how to fly.

Was that really necessary? Regularly diving to 165' and doing deco with 2 mixes seems pretty wienie to someone like me ... I'm much more impressed by someone who knows their limits, sticks by them, and is not afraid to say so.

 

[Flightlead]

Was that really necessary? Regularly diving to 165' and doing deco with 2 mixes seems pretty wienie to someone like me ... I'm much more impressed by someone who knows their limits, sticks by them, and is not afraid to say so.

Thass I agree with you. I'm a wussy. What can I say? I sit at your feet and hope to catch the wisdom that falls from your keyboard!

btw, not really joking about that lol.

My point was, 20 years experience has nothing to do with anything. I was attempting to illustrate more of the "I want someone to be my mommy" thinking, whether its the DM the federal government, whatever, that is ruining this country.

 

[rsldonk]

How do you know his training didn't emphasize this at every turn? People can be told something a hundred times, repeat it back to the authority figure, and still not follow the advise. I know, I was a teenage boy once! I still know adults like that.

I have NO idea what his training was like and neither do you. The (2nd hand) comment about "doing it to say he did it" may very well indicate disregarding of this training, had it been administered. I don't know.

I will say that when you've spent a chunk of change to be somewhere, calling a dive is a "difficult" thing to do, but a vital skill. I just called my first one a few weeks ago. Called two of them, actually. Flushed anywhere between $80 and a few hundred bucks down the drain depending on how you count. Glad I did, but not something everyone will do regardless of their training.

This has been discussed by others, so not going to redo it. I will just say that if the instructor didn't pick up that this guy didn't get this principal, he should not have passed him. I do think that the trend away from quality classroom instruction is very alarming. In most OW courses, you learn just enough that you can successfully kill yourself and not much more. This instructor may have done a really good job, but the fact that this guy ignored some of his training really makes me wonder.

And yes, calling a dive sucks, had to do it myself, and yes I was pissed. But being dead sucks a lot worse than losing some money.

 

[Web Monkey]

and I have been diving for 2 years and regularly dive to 165' and deco with 2 mixes. so what does your 20 years in have to do with anything? If you have never been kicked out of the nest, you don't know how to fly.

It tells me that you're squarely in the middle of "most likely to get killed or injured during diving" group and she's in the "most likely to return home safely group".

Terry

PS. This isn't a cheap shot, it's from DAN's accident statistics

 

[Ninja Diver]

I'm REALLY sorry to hear of your loss. As it was expressed earlier, losing a freind is a terrible experiance, no matter what the circumstances. Unfortunetely, there are no details in any of the articles that indicate this was a DM error. I certainly understand that you have strong feelings about the circumstances, and I agree that this is a group of people that will get behind a justifiable cause in an instant. I have dove in the Grand Cayman Islands, with Ocean Frontiers and they were one of the best experiances, if not THE best experiance, I've ever had on a pleasure dive. I work in the scuba Industry and therfore, REALLY know how it's supposed to be done. There are just not enough facts yet to make that decision.

Once again, VERY sorry to hear of the loss of your freind.

 

[fosterboxermom]

I'm REALLY sorry to hear of your loss. As it was expressed earlier, losing a freind is a terrible experiance, no matter what the circumstances. Unfortunetely, there are no details in any of the articles that indicate this was a DM error. I certainly understand that you have strong feelings about the circumstances, and I agree that this is a group of people that will get behind a justifiable cause in an instant. I have dove in the Grand Cayman Islands, with Ocean Frontiers and they were one of the best experiances, if not THE best experiance, I've ever had on a pleasure dive. I work in the scuba Industry and therfore, REALLY know how it's supposed to be done. There are just not enough facts yet to make that decision.

Once again, VERY sorry to hear of the loss of your freind.

Thank you. You mention that there just are not enough facts yet to make that decision. Do you have other facts that we don't have?

 

[vondo]

This has been discussed by others, so not going to redo it. I will just say that if the instructor didn't pick up that this guy didn't get this principal, he should not have passed him. I do think that the trend away from quality classroom instruction is very alarming. In most OW courses, you learn just enough that you can successfully kill yourself and not much more. This instructor may have done a really good job, but the fact that this guy ignored some of his training really makes me wonder.

Actually I basically agree with you as long as you are talking about generalities and not specific cases.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I must say that I am somewhat surprised that this thread is still generating so much interest. But I will also say that I am glad it is. Too many incidents like this have come and gone during the time I have been on Scubaboard. As a result very few people learned from them. This thread is attracting so much attention and I am still getting requests to use my post that perhaps something very good will come out of it. I seriously hope this thread does not go away.

Robyn please understand my reasons for saying this. The more new divers and old divers learn that diving is not all fun and sun and travel the better. The more divers that question their instructors, shops, resorts, and agencies the better chance there will be of some of the poor instruction methods and cutting of corners going away. When divers start asking why did you not cover this or that? Why are we not going over rescue skills, buddy skills, communications between divers and DM's/ Guides, etc. Why don't I know how to control my buoyancy and figure out how much weight I need? Why is there no O2 on the boat? Why is the first aid under lock and key? What exactly can I expect from the DM and why did my instructor not tell me or warn me about different places having different customs as to DM's on the boat?

I hope this thread gets to every agency there is and I'd like my post as to responsibility to get to them as well. I know it's going to SEI cause I'm gonna send it. But fact is we do cover all those things in OW class and more. My goal is to turn out divers who do not need a DM other than to be a guide and show them cool stuff. I don't want to turn out divers who need help with their gear from anyone other than their buddy. I do want to turn out divers who have the sense to ask for a DM or Instructor if diving a new site or under new conditions with the understanding that they are contracting them for this. I want them to seek out qualified instruction when they want to get into new areas of diving that require it. And most of all I want them to know their limitations and not be afraid to follow those limits regardless or peer pressure, assurances by someone they do not know that it's ok, or the amount of money they may have spent.

THose of you who do not want to see this go on- stay the hell out of the discussion! There are still valuable lessons to be learned. She has come back and tried to give us what she can and in a more rational way each time. Don't like it or the way she is doing so? Tough! I would like to see you do the same and have the guts to admit when things did not come out the way they should have. Emotions can make basket cases out of anyone except perhaps a sociopath.

I too would like more info but until such time as it comes out officially or by permission of the deceased next of kin I can wait and take what I have learned and pass it on to my students, dive buddies, and frankly at this point anyone who will listen. People die doing this sport, and a significant number of them are just out of training. That you would think would be the smallest group if ALL of their training was sound and complete. But obviously that is not the case. The point now is to find out why and ask the questions many do not want to answer. I have no issue answering any one. Those who do may need to look at their practices and ask if dumbing down courses is worth even one life? Because over the last few years I can see where a number of deaths could have been prevented by doing so. It's too bad the thread about the diver dying off Ft Lauderdale went by the wayside. She was new as well and there were quite few lessons there as well.

So keep asking, keep speculating, and by all means keep this in the front of your mind the next time you decide to do a "trust me" dive, take what a shop, op, or resort tells you for gospel, think a weekend course will be good enough for one of your loved ones so they can dive with you, or feel uncomfortable with calling a dive for any reason. I will keep checking in on this thread and hopefully be able to contribute more to it as more info becomes available.

 

[JCAT]

originally Posted by scd4235

I'm REALLY sorry to hear of your loss. As it was expressed earlier, losing a freind is a terrible experiance, no matter what the circumstances. Unfortunetely, there are no details in any of the articles that indicate this was a DM error. I certainly understand that you have strong feelings about the circumstances, and I agree that this is a group of people that will get behind a justifiable cause in an instant. I have dove in the Grand Cayman Islands, with Ocean Frontiers and they were one of the best experiances, if not THE best experiance, I've ever had on a pleasure dive. I work in the scuba Industry and therfore, REALLY know how it's supposed to be done. There are just not enough facts yet to make that decision.

Once again, VERY sorry to hear of the loss of your freind.

Thank you. You mention that there just are not enough facts yet to make that decision. Do you have other facts that we don't have?

That's exactly the issue, not enough verifiable facts. Examining the causes of an accident or death requires emotionless, cold, hard facts. From what the COD was, to what exact equipment the diver was wearing and who examined it. Was the divers tank empty upon his retrieval? Was the remaining air, if any, analyzed? And about a hundred other details that must be known, up to and including what the diver ate and drank prior.

I'm not, and I'm sure others are not willing to place blame on ANYONE, until all facts are known.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Since I am coming to the party late (darn packing) I am going to say that I am a supporter of LetterBoy in this thread. While his approach may not be the best for some of you, I will agree that if facts exist that a person knows about, it serves ZERO purpose to come on here and say "I have them but I am not gonna tell you guys". I understand the reasoning for the OP's inability to share information however I also support those that feel there is some credibility lost because of this approach. So, on the fence I sit .

Thank you. You mention that there just are not enough facts yet to make that decision. Do you have other facts that we don't have?

I am curious as to what your intention is with this post. There ARE NOT enough verifiable facts here so why would you then ask the person that states this if they have some. This sounds like a turf war in the making. I hope I am wrong because it will mean that I have been all wrong through this thread.