Diver Death in Cayman

[fosterboxermom]

I was under the impression that naui/padi and the like cut off the jr certifications at 12 or 13...not that it matters much in your example. But what does matter is that no reputable dive op is going to take someone under 18 on a charter unless accompanied by an adult or legal guardian. They have to have someone sign the legal disclaimer. Now if a DM or other diver certified or not took a minor out diving from their own personal boat without their parents consent and the kid got hurt, they are absolutely liable.

Anyway...So yes, personally I do agree that it is inherently the individual diver's responsibility for their own safety. If the diver is unable to make informed decisions on their own (as is the case for a child) it is the responsibility of the parent or legal guardian to insure their safety. Thats why they put the "I know and understand that diving is an inherently dangerous activity" clause in the disclaimer.

It is 10 yrs old but the online is 13 for PADI. I guess the dive op was not reputable then because there was a minor on our boat under 18 and his guardian was not with him. I don't know for sure who signed for him but they did and then let him go by himself.

 

[InTheDrink]

Vacation diving is always an accident waiting to happen therefore the diver always has to be responsible for him/herself.

Most of the responsibility was with the diver as it always will be. That's not to say that the DM did an exemplary job.

The victim in this case had more going for him than many and it still did no good because ultimately you have to be responsible for yourself. He was in the water with his girlfriend and other friend (OP). This is two more people in the water with him that he knew than many vacationing divers have. If they couothldn't see him or stop him how is a DM leading a large group going to?

This post and many others before of a similar nature has made me feel angry in my gut. I don't know why. It's just a gut feeling. Maybe it's just that I feel that if more experienced divers aren't going to look out for the newbies then I prefer if they could be clear about that and we could agree to **** off in our own different directions. Like I say, it's just a gut feeling.

Must say tho, I'd hate to leave any of my children with peeps like you for more than one second. Clearly you look after yourself and yourself alone and to the letter of the law.

Rant over, I'll quit this thread now, don't have the stomach for people these days.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Good post Jim, Thanks. I agree.

 

[gcbryan]

This post and many others before of a similar nature has made me feel angry in my gut. I don't know why. It's just a gut feeling. Maybe it's just that I feel that if more experienced divers aren't going to look out for the newbies then I prefer if they could be clear about that and we could agree to **** off in our own different directions. Like I say, it's just a gut feeling.

Must say tho, I'd hate to leave any of my children with peeps like you for more than one second. Clearly you look after yourself and yourself alone and to the letter of the law.

Rant over, I'll quit this thread now, don't have the stomach for people these days.

I'm not quite sure what your problem is but you shouldn't leave your children with (people like) me. You don't know me and they are your children...look after them.

However, I siad nothing about one diver not trying their best to look after another diver! I'd help any diver I saw in the water who looked like they needed help so I don't know what the heck you are talking about.

The point is that while it's great to hope that there are people around to help you it's best not to count on it. Look at the case in point...even if everyone should agree that all the fault was with the Dm so what...the diver in question is still dead.

 

[spoolin01]

If I take someone to a shooting range and they shoot themselves in the foot is that my fault?

Look, I'm not saying the DM doesn't have some level of responsibility, he might. However, the idea that all or most of the blame, as some have suggested, lies on him and not the diver is absurd to me.

Sure, it's ironic and a little sad to see where we've come with liability law in the USA. From what is posted here the laws in Cayman may put more responsibility on the primary actor.

But yes, I think you are responsible to some degree. This is your business, you asked for money - in fact you trolled for the shooter - you gave him a gun, maybe even one with an unsafe firing mechanism. You told him he could draw and shoot as fast as he could, because it was fun, because a lot of other people who came there liked to do that. You probably had pictures of that on your website and bragged about it yourself. You sold the fantasy. Maybe you even ordered him to do it.

I don't think anything has been posted here to indicate what went wrong for the guy who drowned, notably even to the effect that his separation from the group was willful. His intent prior to the dive has been described, but who knows if the incident was his fault beyond putting himself at risk (he likely wasn't alone in that fault by commonly understood standards). What if he had some equipment problem with his rented gear or otherwise simply needed an attentive buddy, does that change your opinion overall of how the blame should be apportioned?

 

[InTheDrink]

Like I said, certain attitudes have made me both sad and angry.

I've dived with a load of DMs and usually they've been brill, from brief to beer. Fun and safety have been encapsulated. The DM in question clearly royally ****ed up. But we all do and if this was a one off my heart really goes out to him. Poor soul.

Much - MUCH - more worrying is the prevalent view on this board that newbs are alone. Tough ****, **** off, work it out yourself.

Hence why my opinion of the profession has dropped dramatically.

 

[fosterboxermom]

I was under the impression that naui/padi and the like cut off the jr certifications at 12 or 13...not that it matters much in your example. But what does matter is that no reputable dive op is going to take someone under 18 on a charter unless accompanied by an adult or legal guardian. They have to have someone sign the legal disclaimer. Now if a DM or other diver certified or not took a minor out diving from their own personal boat without their parents consent and the kid got hurt, they are absolutely liable.

Anyway...So yes, personally I do agree that it is inherently the individual diver's responsibility for their own safety. If the diver is unable to make informed decisions on their own (as is the case for a child) it is the responsibility of the parent or legal guardian to insure their safety. Thats why they put the "I know and understand that diving is an inherently dangerous activity" clause in the disclaimer.

Sure, it's ironic and a little sad to see where we've come with liability law in the USA. From what is posted here the laws in Cayman may put more responsibility on the primary actor.

But yes, I think you are responsible to some degree. This is your business, you asked for money - in fact you trolled for the shooter - you gave him a gun, maybe even one with an unsafe firing mechanism. You told him he could draw and shoot as fast as he could, because it was fun, because a lot of other people who came there liked to do that. You probably had pictures of that on your website and bragged about it yourself. You sold the fantasy. Maybe you even ordered him to do it.

I don't think anything has been posted here to indicate what went wrong for the guy who drowned, notably even to the effect that his separation from the group was willful. His intent prior to the dive has been described, but who knows if the incident was his fault beyond putting himself at risk (he likely wasn't alone in that fault by commonly understood standards). What if he had some equipment problem with his rented gear or otherwise simply needed an attentive buddy, does that change your opinion overall of how the blame should be apportioned?

Just a couple of facts.
1. He didn't drown
2. He had all his own gear and it was in perfect working order. Brand new.

 

[spoolin01]

Just a couple of facts.
1. He didn't drown
2. He had all his own gear and it was in perfect working order. Brand new.

Thanks for the corrections. Sorry if I missed that earlier.

 

[mrlipis]

This particular accident didn't happen because there was no one left on the boat and the boat was there after the dive. These are all things to consider when choosing a charter but what does it have to do with this accident?

You are correct it didn't cause the accident, it shows a complete disregard for safety however. In a court of law it is going to show a pattern of negligence. In the U.S. it is a law for a captain to stay with the boat and any marintime captain will tell you the same thing. This whole thing is really sad and was avoidable with some common sense from everyone involved.

 

[Cindy_K]

Hi hon, I am so sorry that this accident occurred, it is truly a nightmare - I am a student diver so please forgive my interjection into this topic. There is an excellent on-topic article in the April 2009 issue of Dive Training Magazine "The 4 W's of Guided Dives - What, Why, When & Where" . (Page 22) Besides being a student diver, I also hold my private pilots certification. I have also worked in flight test, and witnessed several crashes of experimental military aircraft (I don't recommend doing that). I am using this terrible incident as "lessons learned" and am adding it to my knowledge base, so please understand, that Brendon did not die in vain. We must non-judgmentally and without emotion (as much as possible) - review the incident in the same way that an aircraft incident is reviewed. What I am hearing seems to be the same as the initial (probably 90 percent) initial finding, which you may have heard repeated ad nauseum in the news - "pilot error" However, as an accident is investigated over time, other factors begin to appear. This has a direct parallel to diving. ....... In a typical scenario (lets assume that this pilot has 40 hours logged, so they are a new VFR pilot), The aircraft is a rental, (being flown out of an unfamiliar airport) perhaps the first thing that occurred, was that the pilot took off in degrading conditions (talking about civilian not military for this scenario)- the wx report said that conditions en-route and/or at destination were ok, but the departure was a little shakey, maybe a little closer to marginal than the pilot was used to - no prob, just get airborne and everything will be ok.... Maybe in a little hurry, so the preflight of the aircraft was a little rushed, and the ground runup gets shortened - gotta get going before the weather starts to sock in, and hey, a nice dinner is waiting at the destination! Lets get go'n! So off they go into the wild gray yonder..... Now, about 100 miles out, our VFR pilot starts to encounter chop and the ceiling comes down..... The work on the radio starts to increase pilot loading - do they abort and try and head back or push on? More chatter with ground controllers (pilot task loading continues to climb, stress increases), and the aircraft oil pressure is bouncing around a little bit, maybe more than they are used to seeing, just a few psi...... not bad, just little bumps.... Now the sweaty palms start - can't climb over the crud, (VFR pilot) so better get beneath it..... Picking up a little ice (ice wasn't in the pre-flight weather briefing!, but there it is on the leading edge and the windscreen) - because of stress and increasing pilot load, forgets to pull on the carburetor heat...... now the engine starts to choke up with an iced carb - rpm falls, our pilot now decides to make a 180 and head back, and diddles around trying to figure out why the engine rpm's are falling)....... they make the turn with increasing bank angle, with marginal ice on the wings, until the aircraft stalls and spins in. In the investigation, where does the pilot error begin? No SINGLE event caused the crash - but the real killer was pilot task loading..... Although this pilot was in command, and did nothing against the Federal regs (FAR's) the accumulation of events did them in. The weather was ok, but the weather and the ocean have minds of their own - The aircraft was ok, although it had a small oil pressure anomaly, their training was just fine, (although their total flight hours were low) the area was unfamiliar, but they had a briefing by the fixed base operator (FBO).....

Now back to the Cayman's - Their is an almost point by point parallel of the Cayman accident to a typical aircraft incident. It is not one single event, it is multiple events in a positive feedback loop. And guys please forgive me, but I must reiterate a statement made elsewhere in this thread - another contributor may have been the male ego. When in an aircraft accident occurs that indeed is truly pilot error, the male ego is often a contributing factor (sorry). His ego may or may not have been a contributing factor, but dollars to doughnuts, it was. Their are many dispassionate lessons to be learned from this accident, and I intend to learn from it, just as I have learned from studying aircraft accidents.

As you may be able to tell, I treat diving exactly and precisely as I treat flying, their is NO difference, except the "ether" encountered - the ocean or the sky. They are both intrinsically foreign to humans........ we are neither birds nor fish, and totally reliant on our equipment and our wits to allow us to function in these foreign environments.

ya' know, in flying their is a saying that is equally appropriate to diving - "There are old pilots and their are bold pilots, but there are NO old, bold pilots". My heart goes out to Brendon's family and friends .......
Cindy