Disturbing trend in diving?

[Eric Sedletzky]

Perhaps this thread gives you a new perspective of what might be involved with expanding your urchin collection efforts and what type of (remedial) training might be necessary for prospective participants?

Interesting you bring this up.
Yes, we get a lot of one and done's.
There definitely is a learning curve to what we do, and some of the people who try out are not prepared for the activity, physically, mentally, or equipment wise. It's not deep diving at all, only 5' to 20' right now. But there is beach entry sometimes with marginal surf/surge. I put a warning label on the days that it will be more advanced.
There is a lot to manage. The depth is right in the "swing zone" as I call it, average is 15' and this is where most pressure swing happens so maintaining position is difficult and takes practice.
There is loading up game bags and clipping them off to lift bags. They need to know how to use a lift bag and manage all the clips etc. without losing stuff. Vis can be poor so they need to keep track of full bags that are marked otherwise if they lose them they are very difficult to find. Then the full bags need to be floated to the surface and they are told never to hold onto the bags, let them go up then follow. The bags need to be floated in and this is where it gets physical, it's the most demanding part of the job when you're tired from harvesting then have to kick like hell to get the bags in. I use a rope to tow it in and swim in on the bottom. It's cold water too 48 to 53 degrees. most dive wet but one guy dives dry.
Navigation skills are a must and there is no one to monitor air supply, that's up to each diver to pay attention to their instruments. They can buddy dive if they want but most people just end up doing their own thing and working their own area.
So yes they get a crash course on doing this, but we will be starting to have free seminars at the shop now this year to orient new prospects into urchin diving.
It's a great confidence builder.
Some catch on and thrive and love it, and some never come back.

 

[tmassey]

Just got back from Providencia, Colombia, the DC guys insisted on setting up my equipment even though it was my own gear.

I’ve experienced the same thing and I have been told it is a tip thing. They feel that if they don’t take care of your gear every time you won’t feel obligated to tip them, and they want — need, really — to be tipped.

My problem was: I didn’t like the way they were treating my gear….

 

[boulderjohn]

Interesting you bring this up.
Yes, we get a lot of one and done's.
There definitely is a learning curve to what we do, and some of the people who try out are not prepared for the activity, physically, mentally, or equipment wise. It's not deep diving at all, only 5' to 20' right now. But there is beach entry sometimes with marginal surf/surge. I put a warning label on the days that it will be more advanced.
There is a lot to manage. The depth is right in the "swing zone" as I call it, average is 15' and this is where most pressure swing happens so maintaining position is difficult and takes practice.
There is loading up game bags and clipping them off to lift bags. They need to know how to use a lift bag and manage all the clips etc. without losing stuff. Vis can be poor so they need to keep track of full bags that are marked otherwise if they lose them they are very difficult to find. Then the full bags need to be floated to the surface and they are told never to hold onto the bags, let them go up then follow. The bags need to be floated in and this is where it gets physical, it's the most demanding part of the job when you're tired from harvesting then have to kick like hell to get the bags in. I use a rope to tow it in and swim in on the bottom. It's cold water too 48 to 53 degrees. most dive wet but one guy dives dry.
Navigation skills are a must and there is no one to monitor air supply, that's up to each diver to pay attention to their instruments. They can buddy dive if they want but most people just end up doing their own thing and working their own area.
So yes they get a crash course on doing this, but we will be starting to have free seminars at the shop now this year to orient new prospects into urchin diving.
It's a great confidence builder.
Some catch on and thrive and love it, and some never come back.

This leads to the difference between what is sometimes called "just in case" instruction and "just in time" instruction.

This is a general education associated with the idea of only teaching what students need to know in anticipation of their coming use of that knowledge as opposed to teaching them things they do not need to know in anticipation of their coming use of that knowledge, but (who knows?) they might need to know it some day. For scuba, an absurd example would be teaching multiple gas, staged decompression to new OW students because (who knows?) they may become tech divers some day. The obvious problem is that all the learning they do not need at this time interferes with their ability to learn what they do need at this time. Students are told that if they are anticipating diving in different conditions from which they had trained, they should seek local training as needed.

In OW student instruction, you see that in the case of some borderline skills, including surf entries, tide planning, and altitude diving. I had completed more than 800 dives before I did my first dive where surf entries or tides mattered in any way. I got instruction from local people before doing those dives, but not until I needed to know it. On the other hand, all my students had to learn something about altitude diving right from the start, and they got that instruction.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

This leads to the difference between what is sometimes called "just in case" instruction and "just in time" instruction.

This is a general education associated with the idea of only teaching what students need to know in anticipation of their coming use of that knowledge as opposed to teaching them things they do not need to know in anticipation of their coming use of that knowledge by (who knows?) they might need to know it some day. For scuba, an absurd example would be teaching multiple gas, staged decompression to new OW students because (who knows?) they may become tech divers some day. The obvious problem is that all the learning they do not need at this time interferes with their ability to learn what they do need at this time. Students are told that if they are anticipating diving in different conditions from which they had trained, they should seek local training as needed.

In OW student instruction, you see that in the case of some borderline skills, including surf entries, tide planning, and altitude diving. I had completed more than 800 dives before I did my first dive where surf entries or tides mattered in any way. I got instruction from local people before doing those dives, but not until I needed to know it. On the other hand, all my students had to learn something about altitude diving right from the start, and they got that instruction.

As far as needing to know:
What should be the bare base line of knowledge in diving?
I say at least a full unabbreviated PADI (or other agency) OW course, which includes full independent knowledge about depth time and gas supply.
I don't think that's a lot to ask.

 

[scubadada]

Just got back from Providencia, Colombia, the DC guys insisted on setting up my equipment even though it was my own gear. I was fine with them setting up for the 1st dive of each day because they kept the gear at the shop and it was ready to go when we met the boat each morning, but they also insisted on doing everything during the surface interval. This weekend I'll be diving in Cartagena (Islas del Rosario) and I know they'll try to do the same.

I’ve experienced the same thing and I have been told it is a tip thing. They feel that if they don’t take care of your gear every time you won’t feel obligated to tip them, and they want — need, really — to be tipped.

My problem was: I didn’t like the way they were treating my gear….

I generally set up and tear down my equipment and prefer it that way.

However, I have done 2 separate weeks with Ocean Frontiers/Compass Point on the east end of Grand Cayman. The night you arrive, you put your gear in a crate outside your room. The next morning, it is set up on your assigned boat. They analyze the nitrox in front of you. I don't recall if they offered to switch over tanks between dives. At the end of the day, they rinse and dry all year gear other than what you take away. The next morning, it is set up again on the boat. At the end of the trip, they rinse and dry your gear and deliver it back to your room. They put a guide in the water that you can follow or dive on your own. Gear set ups were good, at most, I readjusted the height of the BC.

I'm sure the employees at Ocean Frontiers would also like a tip, but it is a bit different than in Colombia. Ocean Frontiers may be the best overall land-based operator that I have used. I don't need service like this, but it is fine when executed well.

 

[reofinadv]

Pardon me, but I'm a little flabbergasted.
I haven't been diving that long, I only got certified in 1998, but we did learn tables and they hammered them into our heads. Granted it was a local course intended for local diving so they prepped us to be 100% self sufficient divers that could plan and execute a dive on our own with another OW diver without any guidance. Of course tables have been replaced by computers now, but the rest is still the same.
I'm just curious, is this part of OW training now at these locales to not need any personal data where you guys claim this is commonplace? Are they teaching "Just follow the guide"?
Or are these people just blowing off their training and not buying computers because they don't want to waste money on something they don't use anyway?

My wife and I just got our OW back in October. We just completed our very first true open water dives in Roatan. Our OW training barely made mention of the tables. The "classroom" materials were provided online and were a self-study program. Even in the actual face-to-face training with the instructor they were only occasionally alluded to. So much so we have never actually seen a table other than as a small illustration online. Despite this there was a strong emphasis on the need to have a proper computer and to use it under all circumstances.
The resort we visited in Roatan asked if we had our own computers (we do) and inquired if we needed help in configuring them for the dives. Interestingly, the console provided with the rental BCD's had only a pressure gauge. We would have had no way to know what depth we were at, how much time we had been below the water, and when to start and stop the safety stop without our computers.
I suppose some argument could be made that a computer may not be critical equipment in some scenarios where a DM is watching over everyone but I don't like the precedent that sort of reliance on others builds into our diving habits and practices.

 

[boulderjohn]

As far as needing to know:
What should be the bare base line of knowledge in diving?
I say at least a full unabbreviated PADI (or other agency) OW course, which includes full independent knowledge about depth time and gas supply.
I don't think that's a lot to ask.

Of course it is not a lot to ask. That is why all of that is required. That is why an instructor who skips standards or does not require a demonstration of required skills is violating standards and will receive some sort of intervention, even an expulsion, if it is discovered.

Cheating instructors can get away with it because much of what is taught is truly "just in case," and many of those skills will not be needed. In all my years of diving, I have never even seen anyone donate a regulator in a true OOA scenario, let alone done it myself. So the overwhelming majority of dives will never need that skill, but in the rare case of the situation arising, they need to be able to do it.

 

[jordaof]

So, lately I've seen some things posted that have me raising my eyebrows a bit.
There have been a few stories posted about people relying completely on the divemasters or guides for their bottom times, NDL status, basic dive profiles. This seems to be in Mexico from what I gather but it might include some other locations.
The trend seems to be that these divers in question don't have computers or depth gauges/any kind of timing device and rely 100% on the divemasters to take care of them and keep them safe.
Is this a thing?

Many People nowadays want.... experiences.. they don't care about diving, about wanting to be a better diver, or even to remember what they learned on the OWD course, they want everything delivered to them like a fancy package, the massification of OWD certifications delivers, us, people like that, I myself i'm a new diver, but I care to improve, I care to be better I care for all my gear, I have it all even tanks, I also care to be a better buddy.

 

[Leatherboot69]

My wife and I just got our OW back in October. We just completed our very first true open water dives in Roatan. Our OW training barely made mention of the tables. The "classroom" materials were provided online and were a self-study program. Even in the actual face-to-face training with the instructor they were only occasionally alluded to. So much so we have never actually seen a table other than as a small illustration online. Despite this there was a strong emphasis on the need to have a proper computer and to use it under all circumstances.
The resort we visited in Roatan asked if we had our own computers (we do) and inquired if we needed help in configuring them for the dives. Interestingly, the console provided with the rental BCD's had only a pressure gauge. We would have had no way to know what depth we were at, how much time we had been below the water, and when to start and stop the safety stop without our computers.
I suppose some argument could be made that a computer may not be critical equipment in some scenarios where a DM is watching over everyone but I don't like the precedent that sort of reliance on others builds into our diving habits and practices.

My wife and I just got our OW back in October. We just completed our very first true open water dives in Roatan. Our OW training barely made mention of the tables. The "classroom" materials were provided online and were a self-study program. Even in the actual face-to-face training with the instructor they were only occasionally alluded to. So much so we have never actually seen a table other than as a small illustration online. Despite this there was a strong emphasis on the need to have a proper computer and to use it under all circumstances.
The resort we visited in Roatan asked if we had our own computers (we do) and inquired if we needed help in configuring them for the dives. Interestingly, the console provided with the rental BCD's had only a pressure gauge. We would have had no way to know what depth we were at, how much time we had been below the water, and when to start and stop the safety stop without our computers.
I suppose some argument could be made that a computer may not be critical equipment in some scenarios where a DM is watching over everyone but I don't like the precedent that sort of reliance on others builds into our diving habits and practices.

You don’t need to understand tables anymore for recreational diving - they’re mostly obsolete, unless your computer runs out of battery and you’ve logged enough data over the course of your day to dive on tables.

It sounds like the resort made sure you had everything you needed then? SPG and computer? I dive with even less; just an air integrated computer, no SPG.

 

[Scuba-74]

So, lately I've seen some things posted that have me raising my eyebrows a bit.
There have been a few stories posted about people relying completely on the divemasters or guides for their bottom times, NDL status, basic dive profiles. This seems to be in Mexico from what I gather but it might include some other locations.
The trend seems to be that these divers in question don't have computers or depth gauges/any kind of timing device and rely 100% on the divemasters to take care of them and keep them safe.
Is this a thing?

Haven't read the replies yet (planning on it), but I can absolutely see it being a thing.

If you think about it, most (definitely not all, but a majority) of newly certified divers would share the following characteristics:

1) Younger age. Which wouldn't make them immune from hogging air, but makes them less susceptible to the effects of exceeding NDL/bottom times
2) Likely being certified in the warm water / resort type conditions, where there is simply no incentive to be self-reliant even in assembling their on gear, let alone planning their dive profiles

It's not good or bad, simply the fact of life (certainly was the case with me). And, it will serve them well, as long as they continue to dive only in vacation setting, with dive guides baby-sitting them. Whatever they gained from their training, they won't retain because there is simply no incentive to.

What takes people out of this mode, and rather quickly, is local cold water diving with no one except their buddy (and sometimes not even that) to rely on. From that point forward, there is no excuse for not being aware of your NDL and such.