DIR primary and backup regs

[Mverick]

mth71 once bubbled...

Let's say that I've narrowed down my choice for a first stage to a DS4 or ATX-200. Even though the ATX-200 is, from how I understand it (from the pics shown on the Apeks/Seaquest website), sold as a complete regulator unit (both first and second stage), is the ATX-200 technically the first stage, with some other designation used for the second stage? So, if I wanted to get the DS4 instead of the ATX-200, but wanted the same second stage that comes with the 200, what would I specify? I wonder if the second stage used on the ATX-200 is the same used on the ATX-100. Is the ATX-50 just the first stage, the second stage, or the complete setup? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, I hope they make sense and aren't too confusing.

I'm not sure which second stage the ATX200 has on it. When they went to the Tx100 and ATX100 and ATX200. I didn't keep up with which ATX they put on the 100 and 200 regs. I know on the TX100 it comes with a TX50 second stage with a different front cover. It's probably the same as on the ATX50. But ask the shop.

ATX50 can come with a DS4 first stage or a DST first stage. In the states I think they come with a DST.

Really all the regs you've mentioned are great. I prefer the TX100 or ATX100 and DS4 first stages. And the Big TX50 second stage. You might like something different though. Try them and get what you like.

And yes, You usually buy a reg set. First stage and second stage together. But you don't have to.

mth71 once bubbled...


Okay, I lied, I have one more question. If I find out that the tanks my LDS uses don't support a DIN (the DS4), do I have to go with a yoke instead? I've not paid attention when the tanks are filled, but can the valves come off easily to that I could use a DIN instead? And if I have to use an A adapter, does that allow me to use the DS4 with the tank without having to unscrew anything?

DS4's come in both Yoke and DIN. Yes. If you get the A adapter. You can use your DIN reg on a Yoke or Kvalve tank. But it really depends on if you are getting your own tanks. If you will be diving the shops tanks all the time. I'd go ahead and get a yoke. If you buy your own or are planning in the next year to. I'd get a DIN. And an adapter. Or have them throw in the DIN conversion kit with the Yoke reg. That's an even better deal. You'd have the best of both worlds. As long as you can turn a wrench. If not. Get the DIN and adapter.

mth71 once bubbled...


I want instead of being sold into buying what the LDS wants me to buy (when I asked about a ScubaPro reg the other day, they said they don't carry them and they aren't very good anyway. They also seemed to push me towards their Oceanic tech BC (I forget which model) and away from a Seaquest, before I began looking at BP/wings. Don't get me wrong, though, it's a great shop with great people, but they are in business to make money, so I can sort of understand their salesmanship. I'll be ordering my BP/wings from FredT and Extreme Exposure this week.)

They are full of it. ScubaPro does make great regs. I have heard of others having problems with the MK20 and MK25 free flowing in cold water. But mine never have. And they breath great at depth. And I've had mine under ice. Also at 115 in 42degree water. And they didn't belch, fart, or Free flow. 115 isn't deep. But it's deep enough to have a problem show up in 42 degree water. But I do now use Apeks. For the sealed system and the Diaphram. I think it's better then the MK20's for dirty and cold water. But on trips to the caribean I use my ScubaPro. Usually for deco too.

 

[JohnF]

You're about to invest a lot of money in dive gear. It sounds like you're on the right track. But go slow and avoid mistakes. You don't know enough about the products yet and you shouldn't count on an lds to help you through this one. They all have their own interests to protect, and their own personal diving preferences influencing their judgment. That isn't to say they will deliberately lead you astray, but they might well do it unwittingly. You can still deal with your local guy, but learn what you need to know before you talk to him about laying out beaucoup bux.

If you really want to follow the path to DIRdom, ask the people who know. Interestingly the brightest lights in the DIR cosmos are also very approachable, at least by email. There are also some lesser lights who refuse to flaunt the DIR moniker, but are DIR nonetheless. These guys can help you get a proper perspective on your thinking.

Do some serious research on the net, gather what facts you can, and then, if you still have questions, ask the guys who really know what DIR is all about. I don't mean me. I'll never be a DIR diver. I'm too sloppy. But I know some folks who are are as close to DIR as damn is to swearing and if you want some names and email addies, email me directly. I'll tell you what I think you should want to ask and who I think you should contact to find out what DIR is really about. Then you take what you learn and you run it by some folks you know and trust. If it passes their muster, then you are getting close to spending your money wisely. I say this as one who was in your shoes not so long ago, and I did buy Apeks, with the DS4 but not the ATX200, after I'd done the research.

Have fun and dive safe

JF

 

[mth71]

Awesome information!!! And very prompt replies. That's why I love this board so much. Every one of you has been extremely helpful, and I'm very appreciative. Thank you.

Right after I had submitted my post, I went and did some research about the DS4 and think I found the information I was looking for, and I feel much better now about my level of understanding. Then I check for replies to my post and you guys have solidified what I've read.

Seacur once bubbled...
You're about to invest a lot of money in dive gear. It sounds like you're on the right track. But go slow and avoid mistakes. You don't know enough about the products yet and you shouldn't count on an lds to help you through this one. They all have their own interests to protect, and their own personal diving preferences influencing their judgment. That isn't to say they will deliberately lead you astray, but they might well do it unwittingly. You can still deal with your local guy, but learn what you need to know before you talk to him about laying out beaucoup bux.

Yes, I am. But I'm about to spend money on life support gear, so I'm going for the best that I can afford. I'm not looking for the best deal (though if I can find a lower price, great), rather I'm looking for the best equipment. In looking for the best, I've been doing research since October of last year (during the no-dive season here in Kansas, plus I didn't have the money earlier), so I've probably been taking in slower than it should, but I don't mind, I rather enjoy doing this kind of research. While I respect the divers who work at my LDS, they do try to sell the stuff they carry, though they have offered to special order the exact items I wanted. However, since I'm planning on ordering from FredT and EE, the LDS won't be making any money, so I'll just order the stuff myself. Honestly, though, they are a good bunch of people, as most divers are. I'm just glad that I have access to you guys on scubaboard to help me make the best choices.

If you really want to follow the path to DIRdom, ask the people who know. Interestingly the brightest lights in the DIR cosmos are also very approachable, at least by email. There are also some lesser lights who refuse to flaunt the DIR moniker, but are DIR nonetheless. These guys can help you get a proper perspective on your thinking.

Yes, I do want to go that route. I've read the debates and understand some of the attitudes on both sides, but in the final analysis have decided that I want to learn more about DIR from the outset (but at the same time have respect for all divers, whatever their DIR affiliation, as they pursue to be a safer diver). I would very much like to talk with real DIR adherents for their help with my gear selection, especially since I want to become a cave diver eventually (even though that's still a few years away, I'm sure).

...I say this as one who was in your shoes not so long ago, and I did buy Apeks, with the DS4 but not the ATX200, after I'd done the research.

Have fun and dive safe

JF

I'm glad to hear that you were in my same position. That helps all the more since you understand exactly (more or less) where I'm coming from, and you know how overwhelming it can be to wade through the myriad of gear manufacturers and opinions.

I will dive safe, and thus I'll have fun!

Thanks to all.

Mark

 

[SimonN]

Go DS4/ATX40s. Cheapest Apeks reg, if you think you could possibly overbreathe one you shouldn't be diving !!

Most regs will perform well enough to do any dive and top of the range have more performance than you can possibly use.

E.g. Scubapro claim the MK25 has a flow rate of 10000liters of air/min. It has five LP ports. So say you have 5 paniced divers at 100M on air breathing from one MK25 say 100lpm on the surface, that would be 100 * 5 * 11 = 5500lpm, theoretically still not stressing the reg - even in this extreme scenario.

What you need is are regs that are reliable and cheap - any money you save means more diving. The difference between most regs is marginal and more reliant on the person that has serviced/tuned them than anything else.

Further more, if you get the same regs for everything say DS4s for back gas and DSTs for stages (turret is handy for stages) and ATX40s all round it will make logistics a lot easier.

 

[runvus4]

I'm not a DIR type person, so take this for what you will...

The ATX-200 is a fine primary/secondary reg setup. For most recreational diving, you won't experience much of a difference, if any, with an ATX-100 or even an ATX-50/DS-4 combo. That's not to say that they are the same, but the vast majority of recreational diving just doesn't tax the abilities of well built modern regulators.

The ATX-200 is the marketing name for the entire ATX-200 kit. The ATX-200 second stage is I believe aside from the face-plate label exactly the same as the ATX-100 second stage. If you get a DS-4 first stage with a ATX-100 second stage, it will achieve the setup you are looking for. Just a note, if you are counting your pennies and spreading out your money over several purchases, a DS-4 with two ATX-50s OR ATX-40s would be a great setup which can serve you for a very long time and into some fairly advanced diving. Once you get a double setup or an h-valve setup, then two DS-4's with the two ATX-50.

The backup regulator should be a GOOD regulator. If there is an emergency situation where you need to use it, then you do not want to depend on second-rate equipment.

The Poseidon/Jetstream are fine regulators and many people really like them. They are not DIR because they are of "upstream" design. In some types of failures, instead of fre-flowing, the second stages essentially shut off and stop delivering air.

The "octopus" was labeled such I believe due to the increasing number of hoses coming out of the first stage, making the entire hose configuration began to resemble an octopus (albeit with not enough arms) by the time you had a primary reg, backup reg, SPG, BCD inflator, etc.

DIN is a better connector than yoke connectors. If you can, go with DIN. If you can only rent yoke tanks, then just stick with yoke initially. You can always convert the first stage over to DIN later when you get your own tanks or can rent DIN tanks. It doesn't make any sense to get the first stage as DIN and then spend the first year or two always using a din to yoke adapter. The DIN to Yoke adapter adds another potential failure point, as well as pushes the primary stage foward such that it is easier to bank the back of your head against it.

Anyway, I'm not sure the Apeks regs are the right regulators for you. Simply put, you need regulators that you can get serviced locally. If your LDS doesn't carry Apeks regs, then either find a shop that does sell/service Apeks regs, or select a brand that your LDS can sell/service. It doesn't matter how good a reg you initially purchase if it isn't serviced regularly and well. I would hazard a guess that the majority of regulator failures are now mostly attributable to infrequent/bad maintanence/no maintenence rather than manufacturer defect. As well, if you need some part fast, if they don't carry the line, they probably wont have it in stock, where as if it is what they carry, they probably will have spare parts on hand, or even loaner parts if you are in need.

Doubles are better for the increased redundency (redundant tanks, redundant valves, redundant 1st stages) as well as better gas management across multiple dives. If you dive a single tank and end the dive with say 33cf/1000psi out of 100cf/3000psi, that 33cf/1000psi isn't enough to go on another dive. If you get out another tank and come out with 50cf/1500psi of gas, for the third dive, you probably will get a third tank out, unless the dive is going to be really short and shallow such that you can use the 50cf of gas with an appropriate safety margin. If you simply doubled the tanks up (100cf), then after the first dive, you would have still have had 133cf of gas, and 83cf of gas after the second. With 83 cf of gas, you can probably take the third dive on the same tanks, saving you the need to rent/carry the third tank and the gas fill the third tank. If you don't do multiple dives on the same trip where either carrying an extra tank or getting tank fills is an issue (say on day-trip `charter boat), then this won't be much benefit to you.

 

[mth71]

This reply is a little off subject, but not too much. I just called one of the the LDS in the area, the main one that I've been dealing with, to see if they carry the Apeks DS4 reg. While they don't carry it, the girl there knew exactly what I was talking about, and said it would be no problem for them to order one (once the store owner gets back from Cozumel next Monday - by the way, he was supposed to call me back on Friday regarding ordering my gear, but he never did). Because the girl knew me by name, she knew that I am interested in taking the Divemaster program through their shop and told me something that doesn't sit well with me. She said that, while they can order the gear I want (and I don't know if she was referring specifically to the regulator only or my BC, since I asked if they were a Halycon dealer), I'd be required to buy and use gear that they use there in the shop if I want to take their Divemaster program. That immediately turned me off. While I can partially understand part of that rationale from the perspective of not overwhelming students with a gear configuration that may be different from what they'd buy in the store (i.e., my BP/wings setup), I am more in disagreement with that stance that I am sympathetic to it. So, while I will continue to patronage the shop (there aren't many choices in Wichita, KS), I will be taking my DM program elsewhere, probably go to FL for a week or two to get it).

Anyway, I know that was off base a little, but since it was brought up due to my asking them about regulators, I guess it's somewhere in the ballpark. Mainly, though, I wanted to express my frustration, and wonder what many of you guys think about it (but please don't reply in this thread, I could start another one if I want, but I'm just going to let it go. This was more of a way for me to help blow off a little steam).

Back to the main subject: due to all the great replies I've received, I now exactly exactly what I want (99.9% anyway, so not exactly exact). I owe a great debt of grattitude to all of you. Unless there are any last-minute comments, I guess we can close this thread. Thank you all so much.

Gratefully,

Mark T. H.

 

[cornfed]

mth71 once bubbled...
So the DS4 is only the first stage of the system, and I would still have to get a second stage, right? (That's if/when I get that regulator as my diving justifies it.) So it is possible to "pick and choose" the first and second stages? So when you, Mverick, say that you have a TX50/DS4, you had to buy the two stages seperately?

This may have been covered already, but you can often buy the first & second stages as a combo. For instance, Apeks pairs the TX50 with the DS4, the ATX 50 with the DST, etc. You can mix and match the first and second stages it you want, but every time I called a shop and said, "how much is the ATX200?" they quoted me a price for both stages.

 

[cornfed]

Mverick once bubbled...

Really all the regs you've mentioned are great. I prefer the TX100 or ATX100 and DS4 first stages. And the Big TX50 second stage. You might like something different though. Try them and get what you like.

I have a TX50 primary and a ATX 40 backup (on a DS4 first stage). The exhust on the TX50 is GREAT -- no bubble interference. I've only breathed off the ATX40 during a couple of OOA drills but there appears to be more bubbles sneaking past my mask. Like I said, I haven't breathed off it for very long (luckily) so I can't be sure. But I can feel the exhust from the TX50 almost back around my ears and there is no interferance at all.

Cornfed

 

[MarcHall]

One thing to consider when purchasing a regulator for a single tank or a double tank configuration is how will all the hoses route. You want them to route cleanly. If you end up with hoses that project out away from your body or out above your head you have have just created an entanglement hazard.

A DIR regulator configuration is going to consist of hoses of a proper length so that they do not bow out from the body. For example the SPG hose is a specified length so that when it is clipped to the waist D-Ring it runs cleanly along the body. A longer SPG hose would bow out from the body and present an entaglement hazards.

If the necklaced secondary regulator hose is to long, it will loop out away from the body and again present an entanglement hazard.

Marc Hall
www.enjoythedive.com

 

[mth71]

MarcHall once bubbled...
One thing to consider when purchasing a regulator for a single tank or a double tank configuration is how will all the hoses route. You want them to route cleanly. If you end up with hoses that project out away from your body or out above your head you have have just created an entanglement hazard.

A DIR regulator configuration is going to consist of hoses of a proper length so that they do not bow out from the body. For example the SPG hose is a specified length so that when it is clipped to the waist D-Ring it runs cleanly along the body. A longer SPG hose would bow out from the body and present an entaglement hazards.

If the necklaced secondary regulator hose is to long, it will loop out away from the body and again present an entanglement hazard.

Marc Hall
www.enjoythedive.com

Marc,

I'm expecting to get my Doing It Right: Fundamentals of Better Diving tomorrow, which I'm sure will explain a lot of what you just said. That being said, are those specific length hoses relatively easy to acquire? Should a dive shop be willing to exchange the hose for one of a more appropriate length, with either minimal extra charge or no charge, when I go to purchase my regulator?

Since you seem to know a good bit about it, could you please explain the venturi effect regarding the backup reg should it be too far from the body? (I'm an aerospace engineer so I know all about venturis, I'm just wondering what it does to the reg that makes it a problem).

Mark T. Harris