DIR and SPG

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Kevrumbo:
Sorry guys (and GUE) but I disagree . . .
On a 3-man Team, Wreck Night Dive, single-file through a restriction, gas-sharing, lights-out egress Drill with the OOG Diver sandwiched between --that OOG Diver has got to know, or at least have an idea how much gas his initial donor has left to share.

If it's lights out and at night how is this communicated to him? Especially single file through a restriction where touch contact by hand-to-hand is usually lost.

And yes, Andrew Georgitsis continues to teach "showing the SPG" on all Gas Sharing Drills. . .

I thought so. I understood the reasoning behind it but I always thought it was an unnecessary dicking around.
 
nadwidny:
If it's lights out and at night how is this communicated to him? Especially single file through a restriction where touch contact by hand-to-hand is usually lost.<snip>.
". . .(in this instance probably by ripping the regulator from his mouth . . . )"

Actually during the wreck class night dive egress drill, we all had a instant to see how much gas we had to left share for the OOG Diver (me!) . . .just a second before we all had "simultaneous Primary, Secondary and Tertiary Light Failures" . . .:confused:
 
nadwidny:
This should also clear up any remaining questions the guy who started the "Why DIR is controversial" thread may have.
Wow! No kidding. You have my vote to receive the Understatement of the Year Award (says he who routes the SPG hose over the shoulder and clips it to the upper left D-ring).
 
Kevrumbo:
". . .(in this instance probably by ripping the regulator from his mouth . . . )"

Actually during the wreck class night dive egress drill, we all had a instant to see how much gas we had to left share for the OOG Diver (me!) . . .just a second before we all had "simultaneous Primary, Secondary and Tertiary Light Failures" . . .:confused:

Funny how that happens.

I'm not up on my Andrew-speak these days. What's the difference between "Secondary" and "Tertiary" lights?
 
Secondary - Second
Tertiary - Third

HTH
 
Kevrumbo:
". . .(in this instance probably by ripping the regulator from his mouth . . . )"

Actually during the wreck class night dive egress drill, we all had a instant to see how much gas we had to left share for the OOG Diver (me!) . . .just a second before we all had "simultaneous Primary, Secondary and Tertiary Light Failures" . . .:confused:

BTW, if gas planning is all done properly, and adhered to.... then surely, I dont need to know how much PSI/BAR you have left as donor. I know you have enough to start with, and if due to stress we suck down your reserves too quickly..... I rip the reg from the other diver (in your scenario of single file exit) and guess what. I know he has enough too.
 
Dibblerr:
Secondary - Second
Tertiary - Third

HTH

I got that. But I carry a primary and 2 backups. Not a primary and a secondary and a tertiary. I'm just wondering if there is a reason Andrew differentiates between the 2 backups.

Maybe this should be a new thread. If some mod would like to make it so then please do.
 
Kevrumbo:
On a 3-man Team, Wreck Night Dive, single-file through a restriction, gas-sharing, lights-out egress Drill with the OOG Diver sandwiched between --that OOG Diver has got to know, or at least have an idea how much gas his initial donor has left to share.
I think that's a different scenario from what everyone else is talking about.

The whole "show the SPG" step (which is no longer taught by GUE) was a kind of "marriage" between two schools of thought regarding gas sharing.

Originally, some of the GUE tech folks were teaching students to show their SPGs, while the cave folks were not. I believe that's because OW diving offers more options for what to do in that situation - for example, do the divers need to begin their ascent right there, or do they have sufficient gas to swim to a more suitable exit point? Checking the available gas helps in the decision process on what to do next. In a cave however, you really only have one option (which is to swim back the way you came), and you either have enough gas to do that, or you don't. Stopping to check the gauge at that point doesn't really tell you anything useful, IMO (speaking as a "primarily cave" diver).

At any rate, when it came time to standardize the curriculum, the cave guys conceded on the "check the SPG" step, as a way of forcing students into a more measured response to the emergency. They were already teaching the cave students to take a few seconds to calm everyone down before exiting, and stopping to check the SPG kind of fulfilled that requirement, so that's what they all agreed to do.

In Kevrumbo's scenario (three person team, restricted passage), I agree that the team needs to evaluate their remaining gas supply before entering the restriction. The currently donating diver needs to be sure that he will exit the restriction with sufficient gas to get him or her the rest of the way out. If sharing gas through the restriction results in too much gas being used from the donor's remaining supply, and if the currently OOG diver can't easily accept air from the third team member while in the restriction, then they will need to switch donors before entering the restricted area.

At that point, however, it is a team decision, and not just for the benefit of the diver who is OOG. The currently donating diver will need to have a good idea of how much gas he will need for the exit, and will need to advise the remaining team members that the OOG diver needs to switch. Obviously, the OOG diver will need to know "why" the switch is being made, so checking (and perhaps showing) the gauge makes sense there. Personally, as the OOG diver, I would probably just "know" what was going on there, and trust that my teammate was forcing me to switch donors for a good reason - don't know that I would insist on seeing the gauge at that point, but I don't see any real harm in it either.

For a two person team, it doesn't really matter what you do - if you planned and managed your gas properly, there should be a sufficient amount left to get you both out. If not, then there isn't, and there's not a whole lot that you can do about it at that point. So I don't really see how checking the gauge helps in that situation - if anything, it probably creates even more stress.

OW diving is a slightly different animal though - if your only option to is to surface immediately (like in the cave scenario), then there's not much point to an SPG check, as far as I can see. However, if an SPG check helps your team with "what to do next", then maybe there is some merit to adding that step.
 
nadwidny:
I got that. But I carry a primary and 2 backups. Not a primary and a secondary and a tertiary. I'm just wondering if there is a reason Andrew differentiates between the 2 backups.

Maybe this should be a new thread. If some mod would like to make it so then please do.
I didn't read what Kevrumbo wrote in the same way that you did and that may be the answer.

I read the terms primary, secondary and tertiary as descriptive of the "failures" in that sentence and not the "lights". So, you'd still have a primary and 2 backup lights, but you would experience primary, secondary and tertiary light "failures".

I think that Andrew still refers to the lights themselves as primarys and backups and that the terms "primary, secondary and tertiary" were simply being used by Kevrumbo to describe what happened.

This is all speculation of course.

Christian
 

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