Dil switch off helium during deco

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Wonder if it transmits the sound file to their servers for analysis and future bulk analysis. Once they’ve done that, the result will be a simple numeric visualisation.

Definitely a server-side analysis, thus internets access is essential
 
Just to confirm it requires internet access to upload data to the company and get your deco score correct? So it won't work in a cave or outside of cell service range?

If that is the case... how big are the data packets? and if you have a sat phone is there a way to transmit them that way?

Yes it required internet/data/wifi from your smart phone/tablet (if you have something like the Iridium Do sat phone hotspot for your smart phone then yes this will work also if you really want to pay the absurd data rates). It only links up with the O'Dive app.

After your dive you will do an analysis using the doppler and the app then 30min latter you will do another analysis, the app will also download your dive profile via Bluetooth from your dive computer, if you have a Shearwater it direct downloads if you have something else I think you need to go through subsurface I have only used it with Shearwater's so I can not speak for other platforms. The app will store all this info and then send it via internet/data to a server in France to compute your Quality Index based on million of other data points stored in there server. After about 10-30minutes you will get your results sent back to your app. I don't know the file sizes but when you send them off it only takes a minute or two so I can't imagine they are that big.

Also if you do not have internet access you can still do your analysis after the dive because the app does not need internet to do this and it will store your data in your profile. Once you get back to civilization you can then upload it to there server.
 
Yes it required internet/data/wifi from your smart phone/tablet (if you have something like the Iridium Do sat phone hotspot for your smart phone then yes this will work also if you really want to pay the absurd data rates). It only links up with the O'Dive app.

After your dive you will do an analysis using the doppler and the app then 30min latter you will do another analysis, the app will also download your dive profile via Bluetooth from your dive computer, if you have a Shearwater it direct downloads if you have something else I think you need to go through subsurface I have only used it with Shearwater's so I can not speak for other platforms. The app will store all this info and then send it via internet/data to a server in France to compute your Quality Index based on million of other data points stored in there server. After about 10-30minutes you will get your results sent back to your app. I don't know the file sizes but when you send them off it only takes a minute or two so I can't imagine they are that big.

Also if you do not have internet access you can still do your analysis after the dive because the app does not need internet to do this and it will store your data in your profile. Once you get back to civilization you can then upload it to there server.
So, in theory it is useful to see how your decompression strategy works for future dives but is unlikely to help warn of issues on this dive before you start getting symptoms?
 
So, in theory it is useful to see how your decompression strategy works for future dives but is unlikely to help warn of issues on this dive before you start getting symptoms?

Correct. It should be used over the course of many dives to help fine tune your decompression profile based on your actual physiology. It is not designed as a post dive diagnostic tool.
 
Not sure if I fully understand what you are suggesting. Are you considering to switch your innert gas mix from HE heavy to N heavy to safe a few minutes Deco time?
If so, I think that‘s a terrible idea (no offence) due to „isobaric counter diffusion“.
I would not increase my pN2 by more than 0.5 bar or to be on the safe side, not increase the pN2 by any amount.
 
Not sure if I fully understand what you are suggesting. Are you considering to switch your innert gas mix from HE heavy to N heavy to safe a few minutes Deco time?
If so, I think that‘s a terrible idea (no offence). please refer to „isobaric counter diffusion“.
I would not increase my pN2 by more than 0.5 bar or to be on the safe side, not increase the pN2 by any amount.
Hello,

The rule of fifths is a classic example of 'bro-science' that somehow became accepted as fact and continues to be perpetrated to this day. It confuses gas solubility (the number of gas molecules that will dissolve in a tissue at a given partial pressure) with the effect of a gas switch on tissue gas partial pressures. Let me try to illustrate this fallacy with an example.

In considering this example, one must remember that the cause of decompression sickness is tissue supersaturation (the sum of gas partial pressures in the tissue exceeds the surrounding pressure) which can provoke bubble formation.

Lets say we are sitting at 90m, 10 atmospheres pressure, breathing 10% oxygen and 90% helium. Lets also consider a tissue that is saturated with helium, essentially at the pressure we are breathing it (so the pressure of helium in the tissue is close to 10 atmospheres).

Now, obviously no one would do this, but to illustrate the principle, just after what we can call timepoint "A" and without changing depth (so this event is truly isobaric) we change from 10:90 oxygen-helium to 10:90 oxygen-nitrogen. Obviously helium will leave the tissue and nitrogen will enter it. If we wait long enough I think we can all agree on the simple premise that all the helium will be gone, and now the tissue will contain nitrogen at close to the pressure we are breathing it (~10 atmospheres). Call this timepoint "B". Yes, the tissue will contain more molecules of nitrogen (than it previously had helium) at that same pressure because nitrogen is more soluble, but the partial pressure won't be any different, and where is the supersaturation that would cause bubble formation and DCS?

The real question, of course, is what happened to tissue gas pressure during that period of isobaric tissue gas exchange (helium out, nitrogen in) between timepoints A and B. If the two gases exchanged at exactly the same rate then there would be no net change in tissue gas partial pressure. In fact, if anything, helium tends to leave tissues faster than nitrogen enters them. This means that for a period between timepoints A and B the partial pressure in the tissue will actually fall lower than the ambient pressure. Put another way, (with one conspicuous exception - see below) the tissue becomes undersaturated rather than supersaturated. This is illustrated in the figure below where timepoints A and B are approximately illustrated by the beginning and end of the thick black line. This is where the rule of fifths based entirely on solubility gets it completely wrong. In fact, the opposite to what the rule of fifths would predict is occurring.

View attachment 663732

So, to be clear, a gas switch from high helium to high nitrogen should, if anything, reduce tissue supersaturation, not increase it. The extent to which this really happens in tissues of relevance to bounce diving is open to debate but if there are differences in helium and nitrogen kinetics they should favour gas elimination. This is illustrated in the very simple diagram below which depicts the situation immediately after a helium to nitrogen gas switch and shows helium leaving the tissue faster than nitrogen enters it (no proportionality intended).

View attachment 663736

The conspicuous exception mentioned above is the inner ear, but this is because of its unique anatomy, not because the rule of fifths is physiologically valid. The inner ear has several non-perfused fluid filled spaces that can only exchange gas via the neurologically sensitive perfused tissue. Once these are 'loaded' with helium, they can act like helium reservoirs that prevent the partial pressure of helium in the tissue falling after a gas switch. In this setting, the inward diffusion of nitrogen from the blood can cause an increase in the total pressure of gas in the tissue - leading to supersaturation and (potentially) to bubble formation. This is illustrated in the simplified diagram below. Think of it as the helium entering the blood faster than the nitrogen enters the tissue, but the pressure of helium in the tissue does not fall because it is being 'topped up' from the adjacent reservoirs, so the nitrogen in-gassing raises the tissue gas pressure, potentially leading to supersaturation.

View attachment 663739

Thus, the inner ear is vulnerable to an increase in tissue gas pressure after an isobaric helium to nitrogen gas switch. However, David Doolette has previously modelled the magnitude of such changes and found them to be small and likely insignificant unless the inner ear has already become supersaturated during the ascent (in which case the extra supersaturation from isobaric counterdiffusion could act like the "straw that broke the camel's back"). This would be most likely if the gas switch took place relatively deep during the (relatively) rapid part of the ascent toward the first stops on a typical deep technical dive (and such problems seem very rare in dives shallower than ~100m).



Personally, I doubt isobaric counter-diffusion is a very relevant concern in modern technical diving where most divers doing deep trimix are using rebreathers. These days I just stay on bottom diluent to the surface, and don't bother with diluent switches. The rebreather takes care of increasing my inspired oxygen fraction as I get shallower. Open circuit is obviously different. Even though the rule of fifths is based on a flawed premise it would likely prevent any inner ear problems caused by isobaric counter-diffusion if followed. But it is very conservative and may create more risk (eg the need to carry more intermediate gases and more switches than necessary) than it resolves. In some ways it can be seen in a similar light to the original 'oxygen clock' recommendations - a rule with little physiological pedigree, and often ignored, but nevertheless a 'calibration point' from which people can work.

Simon M
 
Thanks - I wasn‘t aware of that ICD is judged as a no-brainer in the meantime.
Hello,

My post may be a little incoherent because it is 0600 and I have been up all night treating a DCS case. So, with that caveat in mind....

Its not so much that ICD per se is judged a "no-brainer". It is a real phenomenon. However, its implications for the diver are what a strict application of the 'rule of fifths' gets wrong. As I tried to explain in the post that grantcobin linked to (thanks Grant) ICD should, if anything, accelerate the off-gassing process in most tissues after a helium to nitrogen gas switch. That's why early decompression scientists came up with the idea of doing it!

The fish hook is that there is one organ, the inner ear, where things are a little more complicated because of its unique anatomy (see my explanation above). In the inner ear a helium to nitrogen switch can cause a small transient supersaturation of the inner ear which is almost certainly not enough on its own to produce problems, but if the switch is made at a point in the ascent when the inner ear is already supersaturated because outgassing is lagging behind the ascent rate (ie, the usual process by which tissues become supersaturated) then the small extra supersaturation induced by a gas switch could act as "the straw that broke the camel's back" and incite problems. Thus, it may be important to time the switch carefully when decompressing from deep dives - I would avoid doing it immediately after the first initial relatively rapid ascent to the early deeper stops. Wait for a while and do it shallower. The paper that explains these things is attached. I was the buddy of the case described in that paper that sparked our interest in the issue. It was a scary experience.

To give you some perspective on the rule of fifths, I am also attaching an NEDU technical report in which David reports 25 dives to each of 150, 170, 190 and 220 ft breathing heliox (for sufficient duration to saturate the inner ear) with changes from heliox to air during decompression. This would make a rule of fifths calculator melt down, but it resulted in no problems.

Simon M
 

Attachments

  • Doolette and Mitchell 2003.pdf
    177.2 KB · Views: 168
  • TR 12-04 Gas Switch Bounce - Final.pdf
    262 KB · Views: 185
I don't know why we keep calling it a helium penalty. What it is, is that if we create a helium void by bumping up nitrogen and reducing helium, the greater portion of helium offgasses due to isobaric counterdiffusion. This works very well on paper. Try running a few scenarios on your favorite deco program and you will see that you get a deco advantage if you switch off or reduce helium saturation prior to surfacing. In practice though this may not work as well as it does in the software. I know from experience that the actually elimination of helium is not nearly as immediate or as complete as it is represented in software and that puts us in an unknown area. I still remove helium from my mix fairly early in the deco schedule but I do not use that helium void in my dive planning and act as if the helium is still there.
 
I don't know why we keep calling it a helium penalty. What it is, is that if we create a helium void by bumping up nitrogen and reducing helium, the greater portion of helium offgasses due to isobaric counterdiffusion. This works very well on paper. Try running a few scenarios on your favorite deco program and you will see that you get a deco advantage if you switch off or reduce helium saturation prior to surfacing. In practice though this may not work as well as it does in the software. I know from experience that the actually elimination of helium is not nearly as immediate or as complete as it is represented in software and that puts us in an unknown area. I still remove helium from my mix fairly early in the deco schedule but I do not use that helium void in my dive planning and act as if the helium is still there.

I am one of those people that does multiple dil switches both on the software and in practice. I have been doing them for several years now and never had an issue and find they work very well for me. I know this is a very very controversial topic and some may think I am dumb for doing dil switches however for deep dives I find it shaves off quite a bit of deco and logically the idea of reducing/eliminating He in the loop should be promoting more efficient off gassing. I am not to sure what you mean by "the elimination of helium is not nearly as immediate or as complete as it is represented in software" The way I plan a dive is exactly how I execute the dive. For example if I do a typical 170m dive with a 5/75 bottom mix I would do a dil switch at 60m to a 17/40, once I flush it through I will switch computers to 17/40 bump setpoint up to 1.2 follow computers up to 18m flush through a 50% switch computers to 50% and bump setpoint up to 1.4 and finish my deco. What is represented in the software and on my computers is what I dive.

But like I said dil switching and sub 100m diving is a very personal style of diving and everyone has there own style. There is not exact text book way to do it, I highly would bet good money if you took two experienced divers that wanted to do a 200m dive and compared there dive plans they would be nothing a like. Even amongst my dive buddies for a dive like that we sometime have week long discussions about dive plans because we all have very specific and very strong opinions about how to execute the dive. A lot of it has to do with who your mentors were, personal learning experiences, personal body physiology, dive buddies, dive environments, available resources, equipment selection, etc.
Also I am not saying that dil switches are for everyone they do have many cons as well. Your introducing several additional human error risks and task loading. Generally for dives that rack up serious amounts of deco I dive bailout rebreather/dual rebreather so now you are throwing in even more task to dil switch two units and more potential failure points, problems, etc.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom