Devils Throat TAKE LIGHT

[DandyDon]

PF, I think it should require a couple of lights each, at least - as suggested by the original post. I did it once without my pony, but wouldn't do it again. Getting a pony filled on coz is tricky as most Ops don't have compressors, and I should have arranged this with my Op in advance. I'd also prefer 28-30% Nitrox, but I don't know that's possible on Coz either.

 

[hank harris]

TexasScuba53,

I just wanted to jump in to say thanks for sharing the story, and that while some of the responses have rubbed you the wrong way, I hope the cautions and concerns voiced do not fall on deaf ears.

I've done that dive, most recently this past July, and I have dove with Liquid Blue, an operation which I have much respect for.

I am thankful that the right people were there after the accident to help you and your wife. I am also thankful for the collective wisdom from those who challenged your perceptions.

I'm not an expert diver, nor have I logged a lot of dives in Cozumel (less than a 75, spread out over the course of 23 years), but I do dive a lot for someone who doesn't make a living from it, and I want to suggest that all of us who dive need to read the fine print on those waivers we sign. This is a dangerous sport, and we are wise to rely on our own skills and our buddy when underwater. All my diving in California is done without a DM in the water, but even on those trips I take to vacation spots, I only rely on them to give an accurate description of the dive site and profile. I'm looking to myself and my buddy for everything else. We usually go off on our own, relying on our navigational skills to get us back to the boat, but drift dives like some in Coz where the DM wants to keep everyone together are exceptions to that.

I would recommend Roberto and Michaela without reservation to anyone wanting a quality dive op in Coz. At the same time, I would recommend all of us who dive to be prepared for the unexpected when diving. As you said, stuff happens. We can't anticipate every possible scenario, but some stuff, like entering deep dark places, have some built-in givens for me. Lights, for example. I use 3 on that dive. Redundancy is good at 130 feet. I also use a long hose, just in case my buddy has an OOA problem. Things like that just make sense to me.

Okay, enough rambling. This was meant to be short, LOL.

And ST53, much of the above is not directed specifically at you and your wife, but simply meant as a caution to all of us who dive. Starting with me.

Again, thanks for sharing the story. And thanks to all who joined in the discussion.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, and others that are trained in overheads -I am not - this is not a cave dive, per se, one way into a room, cavern, and one way out. This dive is a series of overhead swim thrus, tunnels, if you will, with breaks. I don't see that a cave cert is really necessary for this dive, I have none and did the dive, although it would help, I'm sure. So, do you divers think this dive site should require overhead training, cert, and that its present OW & AOW status is too lax?

By definition/convention a cavern is just the lighted portion of a cave. The configuration of the cave doesn't have anything to do with it. Leaving the lighted zone puts you in a cave.

What makes overhead training applicable is that it's in an overhead. A couple of years ago PADI came out with a statement concerning "swim throughs". They allowed an exception the the "no overheads" rule in OW training because of some of the neat little toys in dive parks. I don't have the documents handy but, if I remember correctly, they essentially outlined their intent and then left it up to the instructor what constitutes a swim through. As far as I'm concerned if it takes more than a couple kicks to get out, it isn't a swim through. In either case, leaving the lighted zone is never going to make it as a swim through.

What's a beter measure though? OW divers, in theory, are taught to dive in open water meaning that they ALWAYS have direct access to the surface. Let me ask you a question. Worst case, if you decide that you have to go up immediately while in devils throat, how far do you have to go to an exit (worst case)? If there are indeed sections where two divers can't pass through side by side and you aren't using long hoses or redundant breathing equipment you have to be able to do it without breathing because you can't count on being able to share. If you can honestly say that there is no overhead barrier that is any factor or that could cause a significant delay then I would agree that no overhead training is needed. If the answer is anything else then you have some things to think about. Namely, if you have a problem what are you going to do? The problem could be anything from a lost mask to a catastophic gas loss. Personally I am not a repecter of certification cards but you can't breath water.

 

[TSandM]

PF, you've asked a good question.

I started a thread a few days ago about the "what ifs". I think most of us who do primarily recreational dives don't think about the "what ifs" very much. Diving is amazingly safe, considering the hostile environment in which it takes place. Recreational diving, particularly at moderate depth, really does allow escape to the surface, and consciously or subconsciously, we all count on that.

What the poor lady involved in this incident found out is that overhead environments DON'T allow that escape. If all goes well (and the vast majority of the time, it does) you swim through this passage and come out the other side exhilarated and excited by the experience. When a problem occurs, though, you are in a narrow, dark passage from which you MUST exit before you can even begin an ascent. Apparently, which I didn't know, the swimthrough is even more fraught with hazard because there is apparently light you can see which is NOT an exit, and in fact belongs to a passage in which you can get stuck. So if you have a problem and get frightened and head for the nearest light, you can end up like the woman in the incident -- stuck, scared, buddyless and without the training and skills to cope with the situation. Compound this with the depth, where everybody is going to be at least a little compromised by narcosis, and you have a recipe for a disaster which was only averted in this case by the prompt and amazingly successful actions of the DM and the dive op.

A lot comes down to how you want to think about risk. If you want to take the position that 99.9% of the time this swimthrough is uneventful, so you count on it being so for you, you've got a pretty good chance of being right. If you look at it the other way, in the rare occasion that something DOES go wrong, it's so likely to be lethal that you may not want to take that risk. I don't. The combination of depth, dark and overhead is more than I want to play with.

I'm going to go dive caves. But I'm going to do it with full training, proper equipment, the right buddies, and only if I've been evaluated and judged capable of keeping my composure and solving problems underwater by an uncompromising evaluator.

Somebody made the observation a while back that cave divers aren't extreme sports folks -- they aren't into the adrenaline of risk. They're actually quite boring, tedious, methodical people who are obsessive about details and risk-averse. That's me.

 

[Into The Blue]

MikeF,

Thanks for all the feedback. Next time I need information on making hatchets or diving in rock quarries, I'll let you know. In the meantime, I'll trust the folks who have dove the dive in question or at least folks who've dove in Cozumel for advice.

I am questioning the wisdom of posting here even as I type this. As is often the case with these boards, unless you check them religiously, you will more than likely have your posterior picked apart, shredded, bisected, dissected, or all-of-the-above for no reason other than someone got bored. Regardless of what one attempts to communicate, someone else will always know more. That said…

Unlike most who have been unrelentingly critical, pompously superior, and exemplary in the “Monday morning quarterback/divemaster” department, I was actually ON this dive that has sparked so much speculation. A few salient points:

1. Maybe I have a death wish but I have NEVER considered Devil’s Throat a technically demanding dive. Terms like “overhead environment,” “cavern training,” “accident analysis” may excite some folks but they don’t do much to enhance my diving experiences. Devil’s Throat, while deep, is a few kicks in a dark tunnel. I’ve done caves, cenotes, and wrecks from Palau to the Papua New Guinea. I’ve done night dives in pitch black on the Great Barrier Reef. Devil’s Throat doesn’t come close to the thrills or challenges garnered when you drop down in a ripping current in the Galapagos and you’re fighting a moray for a bit of volcanic rock to grab onto before your mask gets ripped off. By the current and there's always a current.

Something DID go wrong last week in Cozumel but unless you are clairvoyant, psychic, telepathic, or have the ability to do a Vulcan mind meld, you don’t know if you would have made any other choices on this dive. Again, I was there.

Sure – bring a light. Sure – stay with your buddy. If you can honestly say you’ve never had a buddy get away from you, you’ve never had someone panic near you, and you’ve never done a dive you thought was a tad challenging after the fact, well then you’ve been extraordinarily lucky.

2. Ascent rate, safety stops, aluminum 80’s, long hoses. Question them all if you like. Recommend your heart out. As a bush pilot once said to me: any landing you walk away from is a good landing. Bottom line: everyone who went on that dive is okay. The DM instructed us to do the required safety stops AS he was bringing the woman up. AS he was pushing air into her lungs underwater. The DM had discussed the required safety stops prior to the dive and reinforced them when we came out of Devil’s Throat.

I dive with steel 120’s which are readily available with this DO so a discourse on aluminum 80’s is moot. I dive with 120’s AND do nitrox on the second dive as a safety buffer zone. Those are my choices. To attempt to dictate someone else’s preferences or second guess their choices with the luxury of hindsight? Try herding cats. Ultimately, you are responsible for yourself and, if you’re wise, a competent buddy.

3. I have often glibly said “you put your life in the DM’s hands,” but I didn’t realize how true that was until last week. My buddy and I were fine but the DM and boat captain saved a life that day. Had someone split a low pressure hose in the tunnel and panicked and grabbed my reg, my buddy, at 6’5” and 250 lbs, might not have been able to wedge himself next to us to help me. Could I have restrained a panicked, adrenalin-stoked diver and done better on my own? I don’t want to know. Suffice it to say that the actions of the DM and captain were flawless.

I’ve had masks ripped away and air turned off and fins loosened. For training and for fun. (I know. Odd sense of humor.) But, having been there, I would not second guess what happened on this particular dive. As I said to TexasScuba53 the night before they left - WE learned a cheap lesson that day. WE watched and learned at someone else’s expense. Fortunately, WE all came out okay. And for that I will be eternally grateful.

4. And here’s something to ponder – how do you know what your reaction will be when it is a loved one who is in trouble? I saw someone blow an O ring at 80 feet while right next to the Rescue Diver certified spouse. The spouse panicked and literally tried to hold the first stage to keep the air from escaping. Not a good plan. Fortunately, the diver with the damaged equipment knew enough to get a hold of the spouse’s octopus and calmly turn the tank off. I am convinced that had it been someone other than the spouse, the reaction would have been different. And I will never say which diver was the husband and which was the wife. J

There’s a lot to be said for training and advanced certifications but you can’t possibly know how you will react if it’s a loved one’s life at stake. I don’t care how well qualified you think you are. Until it happens to you, you don’t know what you will do. Trust me on this one. I am all for post ops and discussions and we on this dive discussed it. Ruminated. Mulled it over. Wondered. And hugged.

Sorry to be so long winded. Maybe that's really why I dive with 120's. Tone and tenor carry a lot of weight with me. Sanctimonious posturing does little to enlighten us as to how to do it better. Finger pointing? I’ve got the finger for you. Be well all - sbc

 

[MMM]

So after 12 pages of discussion (and probably not done) can anyone summarize - in one or two sentences - the root cause of this critical incident?
Curious, as ever, but given my profession, looking for a concise summary of the root cause of this incident. (Maybe I'm asking this too soon and we aren't there yet.) Marg

 

[Jarrett]

Yes by all means, we need more unsolicited and uninformed opinions to be hurled on the OP of what he did wrong.

 

[MMM]

Yes by all means, we need more unsolicited and uninformed opinions to be hurled on the OP of what he did wrong.

Huhhh????

If you are referring to my post, I fail to see where I was seeking unsolicited or uninformed opinions...or, in fact, where such have been offered. Different perspectives, for sure. But, as one person indicated earlier, the most important thing in a critical incident (and this would most definately fit the classical medical definition of a critical incident), is figuring out what went wrong and how to prevent it in future.

 

[DandyDon]

Nice post Into The Blue, welcome to SB. You are welcome to post an Introduction on that forum if you'd like, and PM Dee about an Instructor badge if you qualify. Do PM me if I can help you get started here.

So after 12 pages of discussion (and probably not done) can anyone summarize - in one or two sentences - the root cause of this critical incident?
Curious, as ever, but given my profession, looking for a concise summary of the root cause of this incident. (Maybe I'm asking this too soon and we aren't there yet.) Marg

I don't think so. Discussion threads are good for discussion and learning, but we lack accessibility to the well examined story, etc.

I do still think the big problem came when the divers thot the DM said they didn't need lights in a dark tunnel - which it is. I wouldn't dream of going in without one, preferably two - and for me, my pony.

 

[MMM]

I don't think so. Discussion threads are good for discussion and learning, but we lack accessibility to the well examined story, etc.

Yes, I think you're right. Critical incident review last for weeks and include the interviews of everyone who came in contact with the event to ensure all perspectives are captured. More info is needed.