Devils Throat TAKE LIGHT

[ewong]

I'm glad that the outcome of the event was positive. Thanks for sharing.

I dove the Devil's Throat once. I remember the DM being adamant about checking the skills of the divers days before going on this particular dive. I went with a light and I always carry one light even during the day. I remember being told that there were "fake" passages that might lead to a dead end. I would also never dive this site if I'm not confident of the skills of the rest of group or if there is too much of a crowd. One person can block the whole group. Better be on the conservative side, this is an advanced dive. DMs taking inexperienced students here must be crazy.


Eddy.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It's a little tight in places for finding a buddy to share air if needed, and I always worry about a diver in front hitting a panic button - but I worry a lot.

That's interesting.

First of all, that's why we use long hoses for cave diving.

Secondly though, if two divers won't fit through side by side, it would be considered a restriction. Some agencies have restrictions regarding restrictions, though I don't see anything in the PADI standards. The reason is that you are essentially solo during the time that you or your buddy are in the restriction. Since some agencies permit the use of normal OW gear for cavern diving the divers may have no capability at all to share air while traveling single file.

BTW, as an edit to my last post, the version of PADI cavern standards that I have (I know there have been some recent changes but I'm not sure what they are) don't permit any penetration at all below 70 ft.

 

[Charlie99]

I can say unequivocally that neither this DM nor the DO are irresponsible, reckless, or anything else of that nature. They take diving and safety very seriously and would not have taken these divers to Devils Throat if they were not comfortable or confident with their skills and abilities, including SAC rates.
......
Finally, I will go so far as to say that if you think that the DO or DM were irresponsible or reckless in any way for taking ScubaTexas53 and his wife on this dive, then you have to say that of virtually every dive operation in Cozumel…

Some reasonable people WOULD say that all dive operators that lead non-overhead certified divers, on single tanks, though Devil's Throat are indeed irresponsible and reckless. If you look at the guidelines of the various certifying agencies, the Devil's Throat is beyond recreational limits because of depth and the overhead distance.

There are some dive sites that show up disproportionately in accident and fatality reports. The Devil's Throat in Cozumel is one of them; the Spiegel Grove in Key Largo is another example. Similar high incident rate sites can be found in many other areas also.

What they have in common is that they are advanced dives, more challenging than most recreational dives. Some because of the site itself (overhead and deep as in Devil's Throat) or because of conditions -- such as Spiegel Grove and certain far north sites in Cozumel. The other thing they have in common is that they are "signature" dives; well known dives that bestow upon the diver a certain level of sense of acomplishment or more crudely, "bragging rights". This leads divers to attempt to do this dive when they are not ready.

Of course, the divers involved are adults and are responsible for their actions and the results. That's where the primary resposibility lies.

If you were to look at the situation objectively, Christi, you really must agree that the Devil's Throat dive is either very much pushing the limits of recreational diving, or exceeding them, depending upon your viewpoint.

Charlie Allen

p.s. Yes, I have done Devil's Throat a few times. The first time was on my 4th trip to Cozumel, on dive #209. I'll do the dive sometimes if everyone else on the boat wants to go there, but it's not a dive that I actively seek out. It's kind of like the occasional dips down to 100' I've done on a single tank while diving solo. It is an increased risk that I don't routinely expose myself to, and when for one reason or another I do go ahead and do it, then I recognize that I'm pushing things a bit.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Christsi,

This is not a bash against the OP, his wife, the DM, the DO or even you. These are also not assumptions, but common sense.

Apparently the DM and DO didn't read all the divers as well as you are suggesting. They don't appear to be as comfortable, confident or as competent as one should be for supposedly receiving instruction in an overhead environment. I suggest these people did not really receive the overhead training in the centotes as suggested. That story does not jibe and I think anyone with the slightest bit of overhead training would agree.

I have overhead training, do you? I sure does not sound like it. With false exits, fairly narrow passages, the depths involved, distances from the surface without direct light, this is not a dive for someone just because they have an AOW cert. This place is no different than any wreck where one should be able to easily penetrate certain portion with constant daylaight but could easily get in side passages. There is nothing special about it being Devils Throat other than many people think because it is in Cozumel and plenty of people do it, it must be safe.

I think you are taking the wrong message away as is the OP. I'm not blaming the Dive OP or DM although I think the industry should take a hard look at what they deem as appropriate safety levels. When I posted I wanted others to hear the bigger picture which was not relayed by the OP. Some of the OP's conclusions are fine if you like reacting to a situation and hoping for a good outcome. I prefer to be proactive. That means mitigate the risks prior to the dive. Only a few people in this thread seem to get that concept. I'm quite amazed at all the people who don't see that and have a tendancy to become defensive when it is pointed out. I would prefer to prevent others from going in and saying "There is a good doc here, I have insurance, the DM won't let me get injured, I'm covered". The proper way to look at it is don't get into that mess in the first place.

I have ALOT of thoughts on this, but I don't really want to get involved in a drama of speculation and what people assume was or wasn't done, etc.

I mean no disrespect here, just an honest question to Mike, Dan and others who feel the DM/DO is to blame for this accident...Have you ever dove in Cozumel and have you ever dove Devil's Throat? I honestly don't know if you have, which is why I am asking.

If you have dove Devils Throat, did you dive doubles, lines, etc.?

I know the entire story and I know the DM/Instructor and DO very well, both personally and professionally. I know their policies and dive philosophies. I can say unequivocally that neither this DM nor the DO are irresponsible, reckless, or anything else of that nature. They take diving and safety very seriously and would not have taken these divers to Devils Throat if they were not comfortable or confident with their skills and abilities, including SAC rates. BTW, Liquid Blue uses steel 120’s.

So, before anyone wants to pick apart the DO or the DM or the OP, I would encourage you to ask yourself how much you truly know about the divers, the DO, the specific dive itself, and diving in Cozumel in general.

I know the diver and his wife learned alot from this, more than what he shared. Just because he focused on the positive points of the happy ending and excellent care his wife received, does not mean that he doesn't realize what went wrong, etc. I know they do.

Finally, I will go so far as to say that if you think that the DO or DM were irresponsible or reckless in any way for taking ScubaTexas53 and his wife on this dive, then you have to say that of virtually every dive operation in Cozumel…and if you think they were reckless, well, that just makes me laugh. Liquid Blue operates under some of the highest standards on the island, and perhaps in the industry. It is completely unfair to pass blind judgment on them or to put blame on them over one version of an incident without having all of the varibales, etc.

BTW, this is not a dive that requires or warrants cave gear, doubles, or lines. It is not a dive to be taken lightly or arrogantly, and it is a dive that requires strong, comfortable, competent and responsible divers who can communicate and follow a solid dive plan. BTW, before I get ripped apart for my criteria being too low for this dive, those are simply examples and my list is not exhaustive.

Again, as I said in a previous post, I am not making light of the accident or the dive...I just feel that some of you are making assumptions and unfairly attacking the OP and the DO/DM without knowing all you need to know.

Peace...dive safe...cherish every day...etc. etc.

 

[scubawife]

I know this about cozumel, taking divers on dives that are beyond their experience and training is par-for-the course down there

Really? Which Cozumel dive operator have you had that experience with? I've been going to Cozumel a few times a year and that has not been my experience. It also hasn't been the experience of divers I have talked to who also go regularly and dive with different ops then I do. Not to say it doesn't happen, but "par for the course?"

Granted, my Cozumel diving has been done with only two dive ops - Living Underwater and Liquid Blue. In the case of both of these ops, I've been on their boat more then one day where a diver requested Devil's Throat or northern sites and the DM did not agree. It's also been my experience with both of these ops that dives like Devil's Throat, Barracuda, San Juan, Maracaibo and going to the east side are suggested as options by the DM only if they feel everyone in the group has the skills and comfort level needed to safely enjoy the dive. If even one diver says no (and I have on occassion) there's no attempt to talk them into it or tell them they can do it, etc. Another site is chosen and that's that. They don't charge extra for the most southern or northern dives. It's not a case of taking everyone who asks to go or who signs up and pays extra.

At least in my experience, when deciding whether or not to take divers to the most advanced sites in Cozumel it hasn't mattered to the DM what certs someone has or how long they've been diving. 200 dives in a lake is different then 200 dives on a wall with a strong current at 100+ ft. One isn't better or harder then the other, makes someone a better diver, etc., just that they are different. You could be the best diver in the world with hundreds of Cozumel dives and for whatever reason are having a bad day or week and not diving up to par. The DM's want to dive with you for a couple days and see how you handle the local conditions and asses your skills first-hand.

Having first-hand experience with Liquid Blue, I feel pretty confident believing that the OP and his wife had the ability this dive requires. IMO, there are more challenging swimthroughs in Cozumel then Devil's Throat and more challenging dive sites then Punta Sur. What's different about the Throat compared to other Coz swimthroughs is that it's fairly steep and deep. You enter at 85ft and exit on the wall in the blue at 130ft. Although there is a big "wow" factor when you come out of the throat at 130ft into the blue ahead and the wall to your side, I've enjoyed Punta Sur as a wall dive without the Throat and Cathedral too.

Anything can happen to any diver on any dive. I don't know a diver who can honestly say they've never required assistance from their buddy or the DM, even if it was a minor thing. You can hold every cert out there and make up new ones. It doesn't mean that there won't come a time that you experience a panic situation, take a wrong turn, or who knows what, and you aren't able to react and follow through with the trained appropriate response. It can happen on an easy dive you've done hundreds of times just as easily as on a site you're diving for the first time. You just hope that when it happens to you, you have divers with you that will be able to react and respond as this DM did.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Really? Which Cozumel dive operator have you had that experience with? I've been going to Cozumel a few times a year and that has not been my experience. It also hasn't been the experience of divers I have talked to who also go regularly and dive with different ops then I do. Not to say it doesn't happen, but "par for the course?"

We're discussing one of those cases right now.

Having first-hand experience with Liquid Blue, I feel pretty confident believing that the OP and his wife had the ability this dive requires.

Demonstrably not, given what happened. Just how do those DMs assess a divers skills as they relate to a situation like that? I can tell you how they do it in cavern and cave training but I'm really interested to hear how these guys do it.

IMO, there are more challenging swimthroughs in Cozumel then Devil's Throat and more challenging dive sites then Punta Sur. What's different about the Throat compared to other Coz swimthroughs is that it's fairly steep and deep. You enter at 85ft and exit on the wall in the blue at 130ft. Although there is a big "wow" factor when you come out of the throat at 130ft into the blue ahead and the wall to your side, I've enjoyed Punta Sur as a wall dive without the Throat and Cathedral too.

I think I've already shown that per cavern training limits as set forth in standards devils throat would be off limits. What makes you think it's a good dive for OW divers with no overhead training at all?

Either way, you are welcome to your opinion but mine is that an awful lot of those people probably shouldn't be on that dive. The case we're discussing shows that pretty clearly I think and as I already pointed out, my opinion is based on commonly accepted cave diving practices and training standards. Yours is based on what? The fact that some people do it and get away with it?

Anything can happen to any diver on any dive.

If I believed that I would never get in the water again. We manage risks by learning what they are, training for them and planing for them. Do you really think a trained cave diver is going to swim into a hole and drown because they drop their reg? I'll put up money against that one. One of the first things that a diver learns in cave training is what some of the general and specific hazards are. Then they progress to planning for them and learning to manage them. Skipping those steps and just going diving in an overhead environment is really increasing your risk. That much really is well established and a matter of history.

I don't know a diver who can honestly say they've never required assistance from their buddy or the DM, even if it was a minor thing.

The DM? You sound like you expect there to be one. Aside from during a class, I've never done a dive with a DM so I guess I never needed help from one. I have some dry gloves that are kind of hard to get on and my wife has helped with that though. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about?

You can hold every cert out there and make up new ones. It doesn't mean that there won't come a time that you experience a panic situation, take a wrong turn, or who knows what, and you aren't able to react and follow through with the trained appropriate response. It can happen on an easy dive you've done hundreds of times just as easily as on a site you're diving for the first time. You just hope that when it happens to you, you have divers with you that will be able to react and respond as this DM did.

Just like that huh...just swimming along and some little thing makes you panic? I don't think so. Panic is mostly a response to feeling out of control as when one doesn't know what to do or they are task loaded to the point that they don't know what to do first. Diving beyond the limits of ones training and experience is probably the number one cause of panic. For divers that can't manage a dropped reg or a lost mask just about any dive is beyond their limits but put them on a dive that's already pushing their limits and then throw the lost reg or lost mask at them and that's when you see panic. True any one can panic but training pushes that panic threshold further out. the idea is to push it out beyond the limits of what we are likely to encounter on a dive.

Guess what else you do in cave training? You go into a cave and lose your mask! You lose your buddy! You lose the line! You lose your reg! You lose your lights! Maybe even all of the above at the same time! You do it as many times as is needed for you to be able to work through it.

Now when it happens on accident it isn't the first time and the chances of panicing are much lower because you've done it all before. How many times do you think the OP's wife has lost a reg in a cave? How many times do you think she's been lost in a cave? Had she had some of that training she would have done all that before and had to work through it successfully. Do you really think that dropping a reg on this dive would have still caused her to drown? I don't think so.

I'm sorry. this is as blatant a case of an accident due directly to breaking one or more of the 5 rules of accident analysis as I've ever heard. There's really nothing here to even discuss because, as I keep trying to point out, it really is all a matter of history.

Please read the book and watch the video that I recommended. The book is "Basic Cave Diving, a Blue Print for Survival" by Sheck Exley. The video is "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" Produced by DSAT and sold by PADI.

 

[Rule62]

MikeF,

Thanks for all the feedback. Next time I need information on making hatchets or diving in rock quarries, I'll let you know. In the meantime, I'll trust the folks who have dove the dive in question or at least folks who've dove in Cozumel for advice.

 

[MikeFerrara]

MikeF,

Thanks for all the feedback. Next time I need information on making hatchets or diving in rock quarries, I'll let you know. In the meantime, I'll trust the folks who have dove the dive in question or at least folks who've dove in Cozumel for advice.

I'm actually a bit of a novice bladesmith but I would be glad to help if I could and I could definately refer you to some real masters.

The crack about the rock quarries sounds like a bit of a personal attack. I hope you feel better though my dive experience extends a bit beyond rock quarries. LOL...you might say that it includes but is not limited to rock quarries.

For the record, I hope you don't take my word for anything regarding diving in overhead environments. On the contrary, I really hope you look up some of the sources that I referenced. Some of those were indeed written by some real experts on the topic.

But hey, you just go right on getting your advice where you have been. I hope your luck improves.

 

[DandyDon]

Mike it would help if you included dive numbers and Inst badge on your posts. I guess you have your reasons for not wanting to do so, but by not doing so - many won't know.

 

[Jarrett]

It seems to me that a nearly lethal dive like this should spark the same kind of dispassionate inquiry and uncompromising honesty.

I'm not talking about you TS&M, I don't think you meant any harm here, but you touched on an important point. There is nothing saying that this man and his wife did not do some sort of major post problem review on this incident. They just may not want to do it here on the Internet with all the arm chair experts chiming in.

This board is great when people request info. People are generally very helpful and generous. The problem with is when the judgmental elitists come out of the wood work to browbeat people when help was unsolicited like in this case. I know it’s hard to believe, but they might not care what you think about their incident.

If he would have come here saying, "How can I do better next time?" some of these comments might make sense. But for people just to start coming in and judging his diving skills, the dive operations abilities, and making harsh comments about the event without knowing anything but a two paragraph story on an Internet forum is just asinine behavior.