“Demonstration skills”

[boulderjohn]

BTW, I have seen photographers who do something that looks like a fin pivot with their fins planted on the ocean floor and their body hovering waiting for that perfect shot.
So maybe there is a use for it.

It won't do nearly as much damage as lying on the bottom, but it is still better to be hovering.

When I dived at Puerta Galera in the Philippines, everyone was required to watch a film showing how not to damage the reef while doing photography, and fin pivoting was a no-no. When a big-camera photographer in my group put his fin tips on the reef while he was shooting, the DM came behind him and lifted the fins off the reef.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

"grossley overweighting students"
As I said many times, I taught on the knees for years, and I assisted for two years before that. I also watched other classes using the pool for OW classes while I was there for other classes and watched them teach on the knees. Students taught on the knees usually have 2-3 times as much weight as they should when diving. I guess that does not meet your definition of being grossly overweighted.

So you are saying that back when you were teaching students on their knees that instructors would place up to 30lbs of weight on a student who really only needed only 10lbs? That most definitely meets my definition of grossly over-weighted and also my definition of very irresponsible instruction.

not having any experience"
I indicated that you did not have any experience teaching students who were neutrally buoyant, and thus have to use your imagination to guess what it looks like. If I misconstrued that, I apologize. Perhaps you could describe your experience teaching students while they are neutrally buoyant from the start so you can set me straight.

I did teach an abundance of my course neutral. But also had no issues putting students on the bottom early in the course and particularly for their first attempt at full mask flood and full mask R & R. So does PADI now mandate / require 100% all neutral instruction in their standards? If not, why not?

 

[boulderjohn]

So you are saying that back when you were teaching students on their knees that instructors would place up to 30lbs of weight on a student who really only needed only 10lbs?

In a swimming pool with a light wetsuit, it would be an unusual student for whom a properly done weight check would indicate a need for 10 pounds, but that would be the minimum I ever saw on a student. In the pictures PADI published for the article, I am wearing a 3mm shorty. When I instructed and showed how to do a weight check, I took the weight belt off, and it was perfect. I wore 6 pounds while instructing, though, so I could descend quickly when needed or deal with other problems that called for me to be negative. When I posed for the pictures showing skills on the knees, I could not do it with only 6 pounds. I had to use 12. So to do the skills on the knees, I needed to use twice what I normally used, and many times more than I would use if perfectly weighted.

I regularly saw students and instructors with 16-20 pounds of lead.

 

[boulderjohn]

So does PADI now mandate / require 100% all neutral instruction in their standards? If not, why not?

Nope. PADI is (IMO, to a fault) open to multiple instructional approaches, and I am sure they are getting major push back from people who don't want to change. I think that's the problem.

It is not just PADI.

When I was experimenting with this, I checked constantly with the PADI Course Director who directed instruction for our shop. When we published the article, he signed it, too. He then required that all instructors in our shop teach that way. Then the shop switched to SSI, and he was brought up to SSI management at a very high level. I know he wanted to push it though SSI, and we even had some SSI instructors on ScubaBoard say that SSI was now requiring it, but that is obviously not true.

A year or two ago, Mark Powell of SDI/TDI made a webinar that strongly promoted this. He and I had discussions about it before the webinar. In the webinar, he said flat out that SDI required all OW instruction be neutrally buoyant. However, I have never heard anyone else from SDI say this.

 

[MacDuyver]

BTW, I have seen photographers who do something that looks like a fin pivot with their fins planted on the ocean floor and their body hovering waiting for that perfect shot.
So maybe there is a use for it.

I've used it for sure! Granted photography is the only place I used it.

I've also had the fun experience of clearing my mask upside down thanks to photography.

you could do a whole course on "Weird Body Positioning and Niche Techniques for Underwater Photography."

 

[VikingDives]

Nope. PADI is (IMO, to a fault) open to multiple instructional approaches, and I am sure they are getting major push back from people who don't want to change. I think that's the problem.

It is not just PADI.

When I was experimenting with this, I checked constantly with the PADI Course Director who directed instruction for our shop. When we published the article, he signed it, too. He then required that all instructors in our shop teach that way. Then the shop switched to SSI, and he was brought up to SSI management at a very high level. I know he wanted to push it though SSI, and we even had some SSI instructors on ScubaBoard say that SSI was now requiring it, but that is obviously not true.

A year or two ago, Mark Powell of SDI/TDI made a webinar that strongly promoted this. He and I had discussions about it before the webinar. In the webinar, he said flat out that SDI required all OW instruction be neutrally buoyant. However, I have never heard anyone else from SDI say this.

OW instructors must demonstrate their skills in neutral buoyancy, but as of yet, there is no requirement for Ow instructors to teach in NB. . .

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

OW instructors must demonstrate their skills in neutral buoyancy, but as of yet, there is no requirement for Ow instructors to teach in NB. . .

Why not? If teaching ANY skills on the knees is the total atrocity and end of the world that many folks here seem to think it is....... then why aren't the agencies onboard?

 

[boulderjohn]

Why not? If teaching ANY skills on the knees is the total atrocity and end of the world that many folks here seem to think it is.

You know, your tendency to create straw man arguments to attack is getting annoying.

No one says that the teaching methodology that has taught probably 95% of the world's divers, including me, is a total atrocity and the end of the world. We are just saying that a different method works much better, and we are frustrated that better progress has not been made in shifting to that.

But I am not really surprised. For years my primary job was trying to teach high school teachers to use instructional methods that had been shown to achieve dramatically better results than what has been traditionally done, and the pushback against that was way worse. Go into any state education department and ask their experts about it, and you will hear the same thing. They know education would be so much better if they could get teachers to do what research says works better, but they can't make it happen.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

You know, your tendency to create straw man arguments to attack is getting annoying.

No one is attacking anyone or creating straw man arguments. An opinion was offered that was other than yours and you apparently don't like that. I've stated repeatedly in this thread that I 100% agree that teaching neutral is the best path. My point was simply my personal opinion that it's no big deal if some initial skills introductions are taught on the bottom of the pool.

And then..... I simply asked.....if the largest dive agency on the planet does not require NB teaching, then why not?

If these things are annoying you, then it may be best for you to just ignore them.

 

[tursiops]

Why not? If teaching ANY skills on the knees is the total atrocity and end of the world that many folks here seem to think it is....... then why aren't the agencies onboard?

This is a really silly post. It starts with "if" and then posits something that no one on SB said....except you.
Even if the supposition were true, why should agencies do what a few extremists on SB think ought to be done? They do not cater to the fringe...which -- I repeat -- does not exist except in your posts.