“Demonstration skills”

[Eric Sedletzky]

@boulderjohn So, I was a student, not so long ago, and I will say that, while practicing in kneeling position definitely had a lot of issues, I do think it was the only way the class I was in could've worked. We had a couple hours for something like eight students per instructor to run through all the skills, in addition to just like, learning to use the gear and dealing with equipment issues that arose from crappy rental gear (such as O-rings that leaked and a bag weight that was losing BB's with every shift in position). In terms of buoyancy, weighting, and trim, I think even a moderately skilled diver would've been challenged to get neutral under the conditions we were in (shallow water, BCD's with only one location for weights to go and a poor buoyancy profile for trim, relatively large changes in tank weight because we were newbies and burning through air like there was no tomorrow, etc). There simply wasn't time for it with the schedule we had to keep. Now, you might say that means it was a bad course, and I'd agree, but ultimately we got our certifications and, to the best of my knowledge, everyone came out a safe diver, so I'd say it was "bad, but passable."

From there, I kind of agree with @NW Dive Dawg. Like, most of the skills in the course aren't useful to start with. Mask clearing and removal/replacement is something anybody can realistically figure out without a formal instructor, so whether you do it kneeling or in neutral buoyancy, you'll figure it out soon enough in live exercise. Donning/doffing was a useless exercise, because we were using crappy rental BCDs in improper sizes that we would probably never use again, and thus, as I've stated above, my don/doff routine looks very, very different now that I'm diving a different rig with extra gear like a helmet, spikes, and a computer. Also, I'm not even sure if you can doff in neutral? Like, realistically, I remove my gear either on the surface, or (hypothetically), on the bottom because I'm snagged or entangled. Not sure why/how I'd do it while floating. Similarly, I feel reg retrieval was largely useless, as on the occasion in real life I've had my reg get dislodged in the water, itself a rare occurrence, I immediately switch to my octo and retrieve my main reg at my leisure, which, again, usually takes a couple tries, because my IRL dive conditions involve a heavy current and a helmet that, combined, make it hard to reach either the second stage or stem of the regset.

IMO, there are three skills from my open water course that were actually of any use to me. One, don't hold you breath, which I include because it is very dangerous and yet also highly counterintuitive, so good advice. That being said, I didn't learn actual good breathing techniques until I watched a Diver's Ready (or maybe Scuba Magazine) video on the subject. Two, using an octo. Getting in the habit of pressing the purge button, either when donating to another or switching for your own use, can be huge, since inhaling a mouthpiece full of water can be dangerous. Once again, this is a habit that really only became ingrained through later practice and a "well, I'll never do that again" moment a hundred feet down, but I include because it was something we practiced that is actually a solid skill to drill into new divers. Three, using dive tables. Fairly self explanatory. And all three of these skills...can be done either in kneel or in neutral buoyancy.

In all seriousness, maybe everyone else's OW courses were way better, but in mine, most of the skills seemed useless, obvious, or poorly laid out, to the extent that kneeling or floating, it doesn't matter.

It sounds like you got what is probably the industry standard course in this day and age.
Most new students to scuba have very little to no water experience prior to taking a scuba class.
Then gear is typical Rental stuff that is mediocre at best and probably has several poor maintenance issues. It’s quite an ordeal for someone to be stuffed into all that unfamiliar gear and made to do a series of dog and pony show tricks in unfamiliar gear in an unfamiliar environment breathing off scuba for the first time. They tell me they feel like a stuffed sausage and claustrophobic. They don’t get time to acclimate and get used to the gear.
When I got certified at least I had some freediving experience already because we have (had) a big freediving for abalone culture in the area, so many people around here getting into scuba were already water ocean surfer freediver types. I honestly don’t know how dry gill people could do it going straight off the street then shoved into scuba gear and thrown into a pool with no prior experience. My hat is off to those that keep their cool and get through, really! But I guess that’s the majority of OW certifications are exactly that now days.
And as far as the timing thing, yeah they march you right through, time is money. As long as you perform all the skills without freaking out and bolting you’re good. Nobody said you had to like it.
God help modern scuba training.
It’s all about the money.

 

[TMHeimer]

So for Northwest diving maybe they should teach all skills neutrally buoyant while blindfolded by a blacked out mask.

But seriously......what's really the downside of doing the first run through of initial skills in the pool on the knees and then moving to neutral for the rest of the course?

I don't think there is a downside. Particularly if you have decent water experience and common sense. We are in the minority (at least here). Rehashing old stuff, I think the big plus of a neutral course is probably that students not doing the skills must always be neutral in the pool observing. There aren't that many skills that are done on the knees (or neutral).

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

You seem to have missed the part of what I wrote about how the students are more comfortable in the system I used than on the knees.

Once again for everyone that can read. I 100% agree that teaching neutral is the best path. My point was simply that if some initial skills introductions are taught on the bottom that it's not the end of the world as some seem to feel. And how could you possibly know if students were more comfortable using your system as opposed to using another system...........unless your "other system" was teaching on the knees.

Also, explain to me how it would be "a few minutes." Does the instructor tell students "I am going to grossly overweight you and put you on your knees for a few minutes until you are comfortable. Once you are comfortable, I am going to weight you properly and put in you a position that is very comfortable and more like you will be in while diving."

I'm assuming that you are old enough of an instructor that there was a time that you did teach some skills on the knees. If you, or any instructor ever grossly overweighted your students to accomplish that then that was poor instruction on your part.

You (and almost everyone else) keep making the mistake of using your imagination (because you have no experience) to determine that the students must by in some sort of a full on panic at the beginning of the class.

No one said anything about full panic and you don't have a clue about what experience another instructor has

They aren't. They are more comfortable in a relaxed, prone position than students are on the knees. I get the message though. You don't believe it. You are assuming I must be lying.

One......more.........time..........in case you missed school on the days that they taught reading and comprehension. I 100% agree that teaching neutral is the best path. My point was simply that if some initial skills introductions are taught on the bottom that it's not the end of the world as some seem to feel.

And finally, I think you are a PADI guy......so what exactly are PADI's current standards on the issue. I don't know since I quit teaching for PADI when they allowed the shop I worked with to teach one weekend full OW courses.

 

[tursiops]

Once again for everyone that can read. I 100% agree that teaching neutral is the best path. My point was simply that if some initial skills introductions are taught on the bottom that it's not the end of the world as some seem to feel. And how could you possibly know if students were more comfortable using your system as opposed to using another system...........unless your "other system" was teaching on the knees.

I'm assuming that you are old enough of an instructor that there was a time that you did teach some skills on the knees. If you, or any instructor ever grossly overweighted your students to accomplish that then that was poor instruction on your part.

No one said anything about full panic and you don't have a clue about what experience another instructor has

One......more.........time..........in case you missed school on the days that they taught reading and comprehension. I 100% agree that teaching neutral is the best path. My point was simply that if some initial skills introductions are taught on the bottom that it's not the end of the world as some seem to feel.

And finally, I think you are a PADI guy......so what exactly are PADI's current standards on the issue. I don't know since I quit teaching for PADI when they allowed the shop I worked with to teach one weekend full OW courses.

It is nice to see that you resort to personal attacks when your logical arguments are weak or non-existent.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

It is nice to see that you resort to personal attacks when your logical arguments are weak or non-existent.

Yeah......I probably got a bit snarky and meant no disrespect to John. Sorry about that John. I just took the comments about "grossley overweighting students" and "not having any experience" personally since neither are true....

And I will say again what I've been saying all along. I 100% agree with John that teaching neutral is the best path. My point was simply that if some initial skills introductions are taught on the bottom of the pool..... that it's really not the end of the world as some seem to believe it is.

PS.... Does PADI still teach the "Fin Pivot" skill?

 

[boulderjohn]

PS.... Does PADI still teach the "Fin Pivot" skill?

The fin pivot as a required skill was eliminated many years ago, at least 15 years. It was replaced by a vague description of a skill teaching the effects of breathing on buoyancy. You could use a fin pivot if you want, but....

The reason for the change was that the fin pivot in itself is not a skill that has anything to do with diving. It was created for one and only one purpose--to show the effect of breathing on buoyancy. The problem is that it became a skill unto itself, and instructors were demanding it be done in perfect form--legs perfectly straight, arms crossed at the chest, fin tips only on the floor, the floor cannot be touched on exhale, the feet can't leave the floor on inhale, etc. When I was first assisting classes and then teaching, it was the most difficult part of the class for students, and it took forever, all because we were requiring perfect form on a skill that had nothing to do with scuba. That was all absurd, and that is why the skill was taken away. It had become a Frankenstein's monster.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yeah......I probably got a bit snarky and meant no disrespect to John. Sorry about that John. I just took the comments about "grossley overweighting students" and "not having any experience" personally since neither are true....

"grossley overweighting students"
As I said many times, I taught on the knees for years, and I assisted for two years before that. I also watched other classes using the pool for OW classes while I was there for other classes and watched them teach on the knees. Students taught on the knees usually have 2-3 times as much weight as they should when diving. I guess that does not meet your definition of being grossly overweighted. I gave the example of the lady who told me her instructor had everyone wear 20% of their body weight in the pool--does that qualify?

not having any experience"
I indicated that you did not have any experience teaching students who were neutrally buoyant, and thus have to use your imagination to guess what it looks like. If I misconstrued that, I apologize. Perhaps you could describe your experience teaching students while they are neutrally buoyant from the start so you can set me straight.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

The fin pivot as a required skill was eliminated many years ago, at least 15 years. It was replaced by a vague description of a skill teaching the effects of breathing on buoyancy. You could use a fin pivot if you want, but....

The reason for the change was that the fin pivot in itself is not a skill that has anything to do with diving. It was created for one and only one purpose--to show the effect of breathing on buoyancy. The problem is that it became a skill unto itself, and instructors were demanding it be done in perfect form--legs perfectly straight, arms crossed at the chest, fin tips only on the floor, the floor cannot be touched on exhale, the feet can't leave the floor on inhale, etc. When I was first assisting classes and then teaching, it was the most difficult part of the class for students, and it took forever, all because we were requiring perfect form on a skill that had nothing to do with scuba. That was all absurd, and that is why the skill was taken away. It had become a Frankenstein's monster.

Was the lotus position also removed? That was another useless skill, more useless than the fin pivot IMO, unless you want to meditate. At least the fin pivot is a very first start of what neutral buoyancy would be. They just need to take it one step further and raise their feet, and bingo neutrally buoyant!

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

BTW, I have seen photographers who do something that looks like a fin pivot with their fins planted on the ocean floor and their body hovering waiting for that perfect shot.
So maybe there is a use for it.

 

[boulderjohn]

Was the lotus position also removed?

The lotus position was never a requirement. The requirement for hovering could be done in any position. The key requirement was not moving the hands or the fins, and the advantage of the lotus position was it kept both still.