“Demonstration skills”

[SouthernSharktoothDiver]

@Eric Sedletzky I was certified via a university class at my local college. It was, nominally, one semester long. The instructors had us certified before February ended because that way they could go back to teaching other, non-university classes for more money. My "semester long" class was four classroom session, each about one to two hours long, two pool sessions spanning about four hours, and two, single tank dive days on the lake totaling less than one hour of submerged time each.

Now, is neutral buoyancy really all that hard? No, not really. I've hard little trouble figuring it out on my own, but keep in mind, you've got around ~20 people for 2-3 instructors to handle, some of whom have very little water experience, all using gear they've just been introduced to, in water that's barely deep enough to lie down in (for the pool session). Neutral buoyancy wasn't really in the cards, for the time allotted. Now, again, I'm not saying any of this is right or good, but you can definitely see how/why it happened, and as yet, I'm not aware of any of the thousands of people these instructors taught in this manner just in the last ten years or so dying/being injured/suing over it, so perhaps it works out ok for the most part?

 

[VikingDives]

I helped a friend teach a bunch of Boy Scouts this summer. We had groups of 12, and we split the group evenly between three instructors.

The other two instructors taught their students kneeling and I taught mine to be neutrally buoyant.

What I found was it took me a lot longer to go from the beginning of the pool session, in shallow water to the deep end of the pool (CW#1), but the total time didn't change.

In open water, all the students (12) were led by one of the other instructors and instructed to kneel. My students were closer to properly weighted, so they had a harder time kneeling, but in the entire OW session, unless instructed to do so, they never kneeled at the bottom.

Does it take longer to teach in NB/T? Not really. It always feels to me like it will at the beginning of confined water - every class I'm looking at my watch and thinking, "It's been two hours and we haven't made it to the deep end." But right around the two-hour mark, they start to get really comfortable and able to hold some semblance of a hover. Then it's off to the deep end where the skills go really fast because they're much more comfortable.

Now were I teaching for a diver-mill with classes of 8 or greater, I'm not sure I could teach in NB/T, but then there isn't much teaching and learning that goes on in giant OW classes anyway.

 

[Belzelbub]

I was certified via a university class at my local college. It was, nominally, one semester long. The instructors had us certified before February ended because that way they could go back to teaching other, non-university classes for more money. My "semester long" class was four classroom session, each about one to two hours long, two pool sessions spanning about four hours, and two, single tank dive days on the lake totaling less than one hour of submerged time each.

Quite different from mine.

I have two OW certs. One from PADI, one from YMCA. With the YMCA, I had the option of paying for two additional OW certs (NAUI and CMAS), however since I already had the PADI card, I figured that would be plenty. If for some reason YMCA wasn't recognized, then pretty sure PADI would be.

Anyway, both were done on the knees. The PADI course never moved on from the knees. Clearly a standards violation, but that's another story. With the YMCA course, while we did the mask and regulator stuff on the knees, we also had plenty of time to work on buoyancy. More recent courses I've taken have been done neutrally buoyant.

The YMCA course was a university course. I took it during a summer semester. It was 6 weeks long. Each week we had one lecture class on Monday. We also had 2 lab sessions. The lab sessions were a 3 hour block. First portion was classwork going over the assigned reading, with some problems to work out via tables. This usually took less than 30 minutes of the block, possibly up to 45 minutes if there were a lot of questions. The rest of the time was spent in the pool. Large pool used mainly for swimming and diving (board, not scuba) team practice. Shallow end was about 8` deep and the deep end was at least 15'. Plenty of time was allotted so that most of us had a pretty good grasp on buoyancy by the end of it.

My oldest daughter was taught on her knees, but again time was allotted so that she was doing neutral buoyancy during before the OW portion. Youngest was taught NB.

Without a doubt, it's not the end of the world if divers were taught on their knees. I was, and today I have pretty good buoyancy.. However, all the videos and stories of divers on charters crashing into the reef and pretty much incapable of maintaining position, were probably not taught neutrally buoyant.

 

[boulderjohn]

They're not perfect, but they were taught neutrally buoyant and in trim from the get-go, and because of that, we were comfortable taking them into a cavern in Mexico.

The two divers I described earlier also did cavern dives there, on their OW dives 5 and 6. They were allowed to do so because the guide knew me and trusted that the students would be able to do it. They did fine.

 

[h2o_hamilton]

In many other fields, there's a structured approach to maintaining and improving the quality of education and training. For example, instructors in aviation, healthcare, and other technical domains are required to complete recurrent training and continuing education units to stay current with industry developments and changing standards. This kind of systematic approach helps ensure that the training provided remains relevant and effective, aligning with the latest knowledge and technologies.

Why do you think that doesn't exist in scuba?

It does in GUE.

 

[TMHeimer]

Nope.

What this illustrates is the greatest frustration I hear from the debates. People who insist on instructing on the knees say things like this, but they are basing it on what they imagine what must be true. When people like me say that did it on the knees for many years and then did it neutrally buoyant, so we know those things aren't true, they still cling to the myths, in effect insisting that their powerful imaginations give them a better picture of the way things must be than my personal experience.

When starting the first class sessions in the shallow end of the pool (about 4 feet deep), I first had them swim on the surface with BCD inflated for a while, then I showed them how to deflate the BCD until they were swimming neutrally. It took a couple minutes, during which time I corrected weighting issues. Then we began skill training by having the students deflate and lie on the bottom facing me, with legs comfortably spread. They then inflated the BCDs until they were just off the floor, with legs barely touching. Their chests would rise and fall as they breathed. They were much more comfortable and stable than students were on the knees.

One advantage that is rarely mentioned is that when instructing on the knees, the students who are not demonstrating the skill are accomplishing nothing as they wait their turn or they wait for the next skill to start. With neutrally buoyant instruction, those students are constantly practicing buoyancy without realizing it. By the time we reach the point in the class where we are supposed to introduce the neutral buoyancy skills, they are pretty much already there.

From about the middle of CW dive #2, students rarely touch the floor again.

Yes, I have always thought the MAIN benefit of NB was that the students who are not doing the skill to be graded are constantly practicing being buoyant while observing the testee.
For sure, no argument there. It's the actual doing of the skills on the knees vs. NB that I feel doesn't make the big difference that the NB supporters profess. But again, I'm talking about folks like me, who were very comfortable in water well before the OW course.
*************************************
Can someone please list all the skills out of the now PADI 24 of them that actually can be done either on knees or neutrally buoyant?-- like one is mask clearing, another is reg retrieval, etc.
*************************************

 

[Bob DBF]

Is this a textbook example of what all of you guys are bitching about constantly?
“They are going to show the newest student this”
Show them what?
How to do advanced skills on their knees?
When you have to clear your mask or do skills in the wild do you drop to the bottom on your knees? What if there’s no bottom?

On their Instagram page I scrolled down and found a picture of them at Van Damme. This is probably the scientific diving program at Humbolt I've met several times over the years when they come down to dive Mendocino. Had a hilarious encounter when I was diving for abs and they didn't expect to see anyone without tanks at 45'.


When I learned to dive it was neutrally buoyant, but later when I certified it was on my knees. Although initially on the knees, one could not get certified without showing the skills neutral. It was a NAUI/PADI class 1980. It was an interesting class, in more ways than one.

 

[wlecyt40]

Aviation and healthcare are government regulated. Do you want that in scuba?

Oh hell no!! Ain't broke, they will try to fix it....

 

[MacDuyver]

At the cost of being severely beaten I learned to clear on a knee in a pool, demonstrated on a knee in the ocean and never felt the need to descend to take a knee and clear my mask on an actual dive. You just get to a position that works and clear it

 

[tursiops]

At the cost of being severely beaten I learned to clear on a knee in a pool, demonstrated on a knee in the ocean and never felt the need to descend to take a knee and clear my mask on an actual dive. You just get to a position that works and clear it

Yes, many of us learned and were certified on our knees, and have not felt any need to be on our knees since. But the question is, would we have been better off if we had NOT learned on our knees?