Deep 6 regulator and TDI

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modifying gear for a technical course is a slippery slope , I will rent gear/supply for a technical courses , including rebreather......I DEMAND that they have appropriate regs (2) if you don't have the money for 2 good regs you need to save up to do the programs , I will rent several kinds of gear to see what works for you , THEN you can buy the right gear the first time (unlike what happed to me , and others where you out grow the gear in a couple of years ) ,
 
I think a "good" instructor would do what is required to help the student show up for the first session in the water properly prepared. That does not necessarily mean loaning the student equipment. Are you suggesting that all students should show up to the first day of class WITHOUT any of the required equipment and expect to borrow it all??

Intro-2-Tech class had the equipment available at the pool. If you were interested in going on to the AN/DP/etc., you were given a list if required equipment to beg/borrow/steal/buy before you signed up.
 
If that is what has been arranged. Here Intro to Tech is a two day course typically run over a weekend. Travel is likely involved. You want to split it over a day to do kit education, a few weeks off to order and buy the kit, and another day in the water? All to avoid keeping an extra twinset or two and some regs to hand?

Insurance? Don’t dive centres in the US rent out kit to recreation divers? Do OW instructors expect a new students to turn up with a full set of kit? Intro to Tech is mostly shallow skills and really no different. How do people offering CCR try dives manage?

You said:

A good TDI instructor will lend you kit for this course.

If that were true and exploiting the rules of logic, your statement specifically implies that an instructor who can't or won't loan you kit is not a good instructor.

In my opinion that is false.

Short version: I think you can be a good Intro to Tech instructor, even if you don't have kit to rent or loan your students.

Long version:

In my opinion, Intro to Tech should yield a student that is adequately prepared to go on to AN/DP and be successful* without spending an inordinate amount of time in the class. I.e. Ideally, the student should come out of ItT knowing how to dive doubles, able to do things like a valve shutdown drill and an S-drill while maintaining some semblance of good trim and buoyancy. They might need to IMPROVE their skills before starting AN/DP (by practicing on their own). They might need to improve them some more while in AN/DP, in order to complete AN/DP. But the only new diving skills they should really have to learn are deco bottle handling and gas switches. And if they already have the basic skills for diving doubles, adding those are a piece of cake.

To that end, yes, I think it is perfectly reasonable to offer ItT where the student may have to have some classroom to learn about equipment and then go away and acquire what they need. It's also reasonable for a shop to have the equipment available for rent. The point is that I don't see it as a requirement to have the equipment for rent (or loan) in order for the instructor to qualify as "good".

Also, in reality, how many instructors have gear for rent or loan where they have a broad range of different pieces of kit for the student to try? It seems to me that most are likely to just have 1 or 2 specific configurations and that's it. Which means the student isn't really going to get much benefit of "finding out what works for them" by borrowing or renting. If you only have one or two options to rent/loan, you may as well just pick one and tell the student to acquire that (whether they borrow or rent) and bring it to class.

I prefer to give the students a thorough briefing on all their options and then help them pick what I think will work well for them. But, short of trying a LOT of different plates and wings and twinsets and so forth, there is no way to be certain of what will actually be BEST for a given student. There is no one-size-fits-all or silver bullet. Different people - different bodies - need different things.

I taught an Intro To Tech course about 3 months ago to 2 students. One already had all the required equipment before even contacting me or the shop. The other had none of the required equipment, apart from a single tank diving kit. The shop rented him a BP/W and twinset and he borrowed an extra reg to use from a buddy of his.

I think I taught a pretty good class. My students gave me very positive reviews. People (other instructors) who observed some parts of my class said I did a good job. We spent about 8 hours in the classroom and 2 full weekends in the water. One of my students came in only having about 35 dives logged. By the end, I think both my students were pretty well prepared to go on to an AN/DP class and complete it with no major problems, if they want to. One of them would still be expected to improve more during the AN/DP class. But, it is within his reach (in my opinion). He has the basic skills down. He just needs to practice some more and smooth things out.

Since then, I have ended my affiliation with that shop. I can still teach ItT, but I no longer have a shop behind me to rent or loan kit. Does that mean that I was a good ItT instructor, but now I'm not? Or was I just not a good instructor in the first place?

* Note that the standards for TDI Intro to Tech do not specifically require this. The standards would allow you to do the full class and complete it in 2 days. A student could meet all the course minimum standards yet not be at ALL prepared to start AN/DP. It all comes down to the instructor and the instructor's interpretation of the phrase "adequate buoyancy control and trim" (or whatever the exact words are in the TDI course standards). So, my statements above are based on MY opinions and MY interpretation of that part of the course standard. The standards allow students to complete the course in sidemount or single tank and a pony bottle. However, I personally will not teach that class to any student other than in backmount doubles. I'm not qualified to teach it in sidemount and I'm just not interested in teaching it to someone in single tank and a pony bottle.

Does not offering it as a 2 day course make me a bad Intro to Tech instructor?
 
I’m doing ITT with @abnfrog in August. I’m driving 13 hours each way from suburban Chicago to the hinterlands of northern Ontario so I can have my own doubles (HP80s).

I’m already pretty much fully equipped except for maybe things like reels and such. I’ll rent an AL40 as I don’t have one yet.
 
I’m doing ITT with @abnfrog in August. I’m driving 13 hours each way from suburban Chicago to the hinterlands of northern Ontario so I can have my own doubles (HP80s).

I’m already pretty much fully equipped except for maybe things like reels and such. I’ll rent an AL40 as I don’t have one yet.
You are a case in point. You are spending considerable effort to build a test a set before the course. If you lived here I could send you to a bloke who would have put a set of 10s in his van that morning for you and you’d come away from the course understanding your options without the commitment to owning that particular configuration.
 
You said:



If that were true and exploiting the rules of logic, your statement specifically implies that an instructor who can't or won't loan you kit is not a good instructor.

In my opinion that is false.

Short version: I think you can be a good Intro to Tech instructor, even if you don't have kit to rent or loan your students.

Long version:

In my opinion, Intro to Tech should yield a student that is adequately prepared to go on to AN/DP and be successful* without spending an inordinate amount of time in the class. I.e. Ideally, the student should come out of ItT knowing how to dive doubles, able to do things like a valve shutdown drill and an S-drill while maintaining some semblance of good trim and buoyancy. They might need to IMPROVE their skills before starting AN/DP (by practicing on their own). They might need to improve them some more while in AN/DP, in order to complete AN/DP. But the only new diving skills they should really have to learn are deco bottle handling and gas switches. And if they already have the basic skills for diving doubles, adding those are a piece of cake.

To that end, yes, I think it is perfectly reasonable to offer ItT where the student may have to have some classroom to learn about equipment and then go away and acquire what they need. It's also reasonable for a shop to have the equipment available for rent. The point is that I don't see it as a requirement to have the equipment for rent (or loan) in order for the instructor to qualify as "good".

Also, in reality, how many instructors have gear for rent or loan where they have a broad range of different pieces of kit for the student to try? It seems to me that most are likely to just have 1 or 2 specific configurations and that's it. Which means the student isn't really going to get much benefit of "finding out what works for them" by borrowing or renting. If you only have one or two options to rent/loan, you may as well just pick one and tell the student to acquire that (whether they borrow or rent) and bring it to class.

I prefer to give the students a thorough briefing on all their options and then help them pick what I think will work well for them. But, short of trying a LOT of different plates and wings and twinsets and so forth, there is no way to be certain of what will actually be BEST for a given student. There is no one-size-fits-all or silver bullet. Different people - different bodies - need different things.

I taught an Intro To Tech course about 3 months ago to 2 students. One already had all the required equipment before even contacting me or the shop. The other had none of the required equipment, apart from a single tank diving kit. The shop rented him a BP/W and twinset and he borrowed an extra reg to use from a buddy of his.

I think I taught a pretty good class. My students gave me very positive reviews. People (other instructors) who observed some parts of my class said I did a good job. We spent about 8 hours in the classroom and 2 full weekends in the water. One of my students came in only having about 35 dives logged. By the end, I think both my students were pretty well prepared to go on to an AN/DP class and complete it with no major problems, if they want to. One of them would still be expected to improve more during the AN/DP class. But, it is within his reach (in my opinion). He has the basic skills down. He just needs to practice some more and smooth things out.

Since then, I have ended my affiliation with that shop. I can still teach ItT, but I no longer have a shop behind me to rent or loan kit. Does that mean that I was a good ItT instructor, but now I'm not? Or was I just not a good instructor in the first place?

* Note that the standards for TDI Intro to Tech do not specifically require this. The standards would allow you to do the full class and complete it in 2 days. A student could meet all the course minimum standards yet not be at ALL prepared to start AN/DP. It all comes down to the instructor and the instructor's interpretation of the phrase "adequate buoyancy control and trim" (or whatever the exact words are in the TDI course standards). So, my statements above are based on MY opinions and MY interpretation of that part of the course standard. The standards allow students to complete the course in sidemount or single tank and a pony bottle. However, I personally will not teach that class to any student other than in backmount doubles. I'm not qualified to teach it in sidemount and I'm just not interested in teaching it to someone in single tank and a pony bottle.

Does not offering it as a 2 day course make me a bad Intro to Tech instructor?

Ok, I will bite.

Yes, taking twice as long at a thing makes you worse at it than a good person. Do you always allow 4 days or was the extra time because those particular students needed more work?

And you had a shop prepared to rent the kit. That is fine. The point is not that the student gets use of the kit for nothing, but that they do not HAVE to speculatively buy kit based on an inevitability incomplete understanding of what they need.

The other end, of real examples, from Marie is Bluetrim. He is doing Fundies sometime soon and the (very good) instructor is providing the twinset. If he went down the local shop first he might have come away with a wing with the dump on the other hip and internal bungee.
 
You are a case in point. You are spending considerable effort to build a test a set before the course. If you lived here I could send you to a bloke who would have put a set of 10s in his van that morning for you and you’d come away from the course understanding your options without the commitment to owning that particular configuration.

I already owned the tanks.
 
He's not going technical diving, he is on a course to introduce him to technical diving. Turning up for the course with a pile of shiny wrong kit is not helping anyone.This is not doing advanced trimix and expecting regs etc to be provided.

Oh so this is simply a "discover technical diving" course and not a real intro to technical diving course. Got it.
 
They gave you the correct message in that case. It's expensive. Little things that you'd think would be cheap are also expensive. Have you looked at reels yet? heh...

I paid $23 a piece for two stainless steel double enders when I took Fundies part 1 last month because I hadn't packed enough for the class in my bags. Whatever, it's technical diving. If the over riding concern is cost then stay home.
 
That's what I am inclined to do. I, however, would like to talk with the instructor prior to start buying the gear. I like the idea of taking the time to ask as many questions as I wish and figure out what I would prefer. There is a good number of dive shops here, I am sure I can find a place that rents doubles.

Give him or her a call and talk with them in advance about gear requirements. Several instructors I know, including myself, have put together "shopping lists" for gear so it should be VERY easy for you to order your basic "tech diving kit" before you begin the class.

If you're going the backmount route, 90% of people can fit a standard backplate, shorter people (<5'3") may benefit from a smaller one. The instructor will sped some time helping you properly adjust and fit the harness (DO NOT CUT ANYTHING BEFORE YOU SHOW UP FOR CLASS!!!).

Wings vary, but there are pretty much 2 options in terms of lift -- 40-45# and 55-60#. 40 to 45# will probably work for almost everyone to begin with, 55-60# if you're doing a lot of stage diving or in freshwater with heavy steel tanks. The next question becomes shape, even though I'm good friends with one of the owners of Light Monkey, I dive Halcyon wings because they have a flatter profile and are more streamlined (less drag) in the water. I also like the Dive Rite wings. I've heard that the new ScubaForce wings are good, but have zero experience with them.

Regs -- this is pretty easy. Most balanced regs on the market these days will work well, the difference will be in the fit and finish of the regs. Please note, while I personally love Apeks regs, there have been some issues with the HP seats over the past two years so I would strongly discourage those. I would also discourage some of the more economical regs on the market (cheaper is not always better, this is life support after all, but that doesn't mean expensive is always better either). You will want a 7' hose on the post that sits behind your right shoulder and a LP inflator hose that is properly sized for the wing. Your left post should have a backup reg with a 22" LP hose that sits around your neck and a pressure gauge with a 22-24" HP hose (depending on your torso length) -- note I said pressure gauge, not console; a simple brass gauge is all you need.

Even though I've personally never used them, there seem to be enough people out there that you will find Deep 6 regs usable.

Fins - no split fins. Rigid is good for back kicks -- I can back kick all day long in my scubapro jetfins but I personally struggle with my dive rite XT's, however I love my dive rite XT's for warm water tropical diving b/c they're so light.

Thermal protection - depends on location and duration, you'll either want a drysuit or wetsuit. Discuss with your instructor.

The rest of the stuff (wet notes, lights, etc) can be purchased / rented / borrowed during class.
 

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