Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[victorzamora]

Your Vegas analogy really brought home that point. You're right, everybody has a "that can't happen to me" attitude....but it's just a certain few that maintain it long enough to get proven wrong. I had a string of rough times growing up, so that was promptly beaten out of me.

There is a movement afoot to update the "A deceptive way to die" video. I think the whole approach needs to be rethought with the idea of breaking through the delusions. It needs to have pictures of a body recovery, of the dead diver in the cave and even the grave marker. Pictures of the claw marks of their struggle to stay alive... something to bring home the needless horror of it all. I think there needs to be multiple videos made and constantly published and republished. It's up to us, ScubaBoard!

Today's society is much to sterilized for something like this to be easy to achieve. I think unneeded gore and/or fear tactics are outright medieval.....but this is needed. I think this video needs to be spread to every dive shop, all over YouTube, and through every forum. Diving is relatively safe, Cave Diving is a safe bet for a bad outcome. The visualization that the dad (or step-dad, as has been reported) had to watch his son die, or choose between their two lives, is such a strikingly horrifying thought. Nobody gets how scary life gets when you realize it's over. I've been there, completely sure I was going to die. I really have. I can tell you that nothing can prepare you for the horror of the feeling that no matter what you do, you're helpless. No matter what you do, it's over. If people could even catch a GLIMPSE of the horror, even TRAINED cave divers would think again before going under. I know I do.

 

[HIGHwing]

There is a movement afoot to update the "A deceptive way to die" video. I think the whole approach needs to be rethought with the idea of breaking through the delusions. It needs to have pictures of a body recovery, of the dead diver in the cave and even the grave marker. Pictures of the claw marks of their struggle to stay alive... something to bring home the needless horror of it all. I think there needs to be multiple videos made and constantly published and republished. It's up to us, ScubaBoard!

If that movement has leader, please contact me as I'd like to donate time/money to the cause.

 

[flyingron]

I wonder how this would have played out if they had somehow survived. The kid would have been bragging to his school buddies about how accomplished he was as a diver.

Apparently, there are pictures of him diving in overhead environments before, so the answer pretty much revealed itself. He would have keep on diving beyond his skill level until he killed himself.

 

[RJP]

It is a cave diving accident and it appears the cause is divers entering a cave lacking prior cave training and cave risk awareness.

It's no more a "cave diving accident" than driving a car at 80mph off the road and into a tree is "a forestry mishap."

I'd suggest that rather than an accident it's aggravated manslaughter of a child, described in Florida 782.07 as follows "A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(2)(b) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree." (827.03 specifies culpable negligence as "An intentional act that could reasonably be expected to result in physical or mental injury to a child.")

 

[Colliam7]

In this case perhaps a more relevant question might be how often do self-taught divers go into a cave, to a depth of 233 feet, on air, and make it back out alive?

Bob, it may be an OTHER relevant question, but it is not MY relevant question. Like you, I 'suspect' the same answer, for this particular situation. But, that is almost a no-brainer - leave out the cave part, and just take an uncertified diver to 233 feet, and I suspect I know the answer as well. The combined negative probability here was pretty significant. What I am more curious about is how often certified, but not cave-trained, divers go into caves and make it out OK - 'get away with it'.

Often

Probably often, more often then it should.

Well, at the risk of being overly glib, it sounds like Spivey and his son survived all of their cave dives but this last one. There are probably many others who simply haven't done their last, fatal dive yet.

And, I would agree. And, these answers go to the point of my question. I fear that more than a few people are getting away with it, some on a regular basis. And, more than a few never make the 'last', fatal dive. And (unfortunately), there is probably an awareness of that among people like the father in this case (who apparently had dove EN before), all of which makes it difficult for any rational, reasonable campaign to discourage the practice. You can post all the signs you want, and it won't change the behaviors.

Fundamentally, what we are left with is: a) accepting the periodic attrition, b) barring all access to such (cave) sites, or c) having 'scuba police' checking credentials at each site. None of these are optimal, but 'a' is the easiest. In fact, had there been only one death (the father), or even two deaths of similar divers (e.g. clone the father) instead of the younger diver, much of the reaction here might have been, 'Well, too bad for the families, but he / they got what they deserved for their stupidity.'

 

[flots am]

Diving is relatively safe, Cave Diving is a safe bet for a bad outcome.

Open Water divers really don't have a good concept of the magnitude of risk change between "Open Water" and "Overhead" and it's extremely difficult to get them to understand it because Open Water is so safe.

In fact, between the two, the entire risk calculation is pretty much flipped upside down.

In Open Water there is almost nothing you can do that will kill you except holding your breath on ascent. Nearly any method if getting to the surface will let the diver live (maybe bent a little, maybe not).

In a cave, everything needs to be done right because pretty much anything that isn't will kill the diver. Lost? Dead. Out of Air? Dead. Panic? Dead.

Because OW is so safe, and OW class materials really hardly mention overheads because the consequences are "scary", OW divers don't end up with a concept of how easy it is to die.

OW class needs to have a real risk section added, along with pictures of dead people in caves and wrecks, along the following phrase: "If you do "X" without being properly trained, you can die." The section listing all the various pressure injuries is nice, but much too clinical and disconnected from reality and personal responsibility.

flots.

 

[Skittl1321]

This accident has reached national news level: Father, son drown while attempting challenging cave dive in Florida - U.S. News

Because OW is so safe, and OW class materials really hardly mention overheads because the consequences are "scary", OW divers don't end up with a concept of how easy it is to die.

I thought it was in the materials, but maybe it was just our instructors, but I left OW with the impression that diving in an overhead environment would kill you immediately.

 

[HIGHwing]

Whether or not this is a cave diving accident, what the cave does in this accident is it helps to show the intent of the dive team. For the purpose of this post, I'm going to assume the deceased were a dive team, had a legally competent understanding of the risks, and had only the level of formal diving knowledge as presented in the media.

Imagine these same two divers come up out of air as they did, but in open water. Some might argue the minor child got out of control with the brand new tanks and lost buoyancy control. Further, it could have been claimed the Dad heroically chased after his Son to 233ft on air to selflessly save him. BUT, in this case, we know the shape of the dive site. We know to get to 233ft, they intentionally continued the dive despite passing warning signs, and several good opportunities to turn around and exit in the water. They didn't stop in the solution tube, they didn't stop on the debris pile, they didn't stop before entering the tunnels.

---

I noted over the evening hours the reports indicate the Father initiated an air-share with the minor child. As a cave diver you can't help but think through that scenario without some really dark thoughts creeping into your head. Whether nobly or otherwise the Father took the drowning with his Son dooming them both.

 

[kwinter]

It's an another reminder that cave is a place no to go unless properly trained!

Remember the old adage: It doesn't take any special skill, equipment or training to go diving in a cave. But it does to come back.

This accident has reached national news level: Father, son drown while attempting challenging cave dive in Florida - U.S. News

Actually international. Someone posted a link on CDF to a UK news article about it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Open Water divers really don't have a good concept of the magnitude of risk change between "Open Water" and "Overhead" and it's extremely difficult to get them to understand it because Open Water is so safe.

In fact, between the two, the entire risk calculation is pretty much flipped upside down.

In Open Water there is almost nothing you can do that will kill you except holding your breath on ascent. Nearly any method if getting to the surface will let the diver live (maybe bent a little, maybe not).

In a cave, everything needs to be done right because pretty much anything that isn't will kill the diver. Lost? Dead. Out of Air? Dead. Panic? Dead.

Because OW is so safe, and OW class materials really hardly mention overheads because the consequences are "scary", OW divers don't end up with a concept of how easy it is to die.

OW class needs to have a real risk section added, along with pictures of dead people in caves and wrecks, along the following phrase: "If you do "X" without being properly trained, you can die." The section listing all the various pressure injuries is nice, but much to clinical and disconnected from reality and personal responsibility.

flots.

OW is not safe if done without the proper training and preparation to the depths these two went to ... I once had a friend who died on an ill-advised 200-foot open water bounce dive with some equally unqualified dive buddies.

The problem with people who attempt dives beyond their qualification ... whether in open water or overhead ... is that as soon as they get away with it they decide it's "safe", or that they're somehow qualified to continue doing them. The reality is that they just got lucky ... everything aligned in just the right way and they didn't kill themselves. But eventually that attitude catches up to them ... something doesn't go right, and it starts the inexorable slide down the incident pit to the point where they can't get out. They die ... and the world suddenly decides that the activity they were attempting is "dangerous".

No ... what was dangerous is their attitude, their lack of knowledge, skill, planning, preparation, and/or execution. For those who don't take short-cuts, who get the training, learn what the risks are and how to mitigate them, who plan their dive properly, prepare and execute their dives responsibly, maintain a reasonable attitude about safety, and have the self-discipline to know when it's time to turn around, cave diving is no more dangerous than open water diving. The risks are different, the planning and preparation are different, the equipment is different, the navigation protocols are different ... and not understanding those difference is what gets people killed.

If you want to take short-cuts, you shouldn't even be underwater, much less inside of a cave ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)