Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[lowviz]

Part of my cave diving instruction, as an outsider, was that diving caves in N. Fla is not a right, it is a hard won (and not by me) privilege. I get to partake of the goodies, though. Tread gently and with respect.

Landowners get pissed cleaning up unwelcome messes until they close access to their private property, the state has too little funding to keep lesser sites open, and "secret" sites can be closed instantly by one untimely accident. There is one exception, pay to dive at Ginnie, -Dutch Springs south.

Britton's cavalier attitude is what rankles, mess up diving and move on, no loss to her. The more I think about it the more it pisses me off. No buy-in, just take.

Join the NFSA, do some volunteer time, mix with the locals and it will all start to make sense. Sure as hell did for me.

 

[kotik]

Part of my cave diving instruction, as an outsider, was that diving caves in N. Fla is not a right, it is a hard won (and not by me) privilege. I get to partake of the goodies, though. Tread gently and with respect.

Landowners get pissed cleaning up unwelcome messes until they close access to their private property, the state has too little funding to keep lesser sites open, and "secret" sites can be closed instantly by one untimely accident. There is one exception, pay to dive at Ginnie, -Dutch Springs south.

Britton's cavalier attitude is what rankles, mess up diving and move on, no loss to her. The more I think about it the more it pisses me off. No buy-in, just take.

Join the NFSA, do some volunteer time, mix with the locals and it will all start to make sense. Sure as hell did for me.

That is extremely well said.

 

[tstormdiver]

Letting Darwin do his work should not result in site closures or nanny statism.

Absolutely untrue. Do you have any idea how hard others have worked to get Eagle's Nest opened back up? It teeters on the verge of getting closed off again if there are too many deaths or accidents. Telford is closed off to land access (however can be accessed by the river). In fact, in the early days, FL cave diving was almost destroyed in its infancy, by the numer of deaths, by the FL state government. It was almost ruled illegal by the state, by those who have no clue that these dives can be undertaken by divers that are trained, experienced & properly equipped with realtive safety.

However, recognizing that we live in an imperfect (at least to the more libertarian-minded) system, people who dive the sites they're worried about getting closed/regulated should probably work with the site owners/controllers to get more stringent access rules implemented.

The NSS-CDS, NACD, NFSA & other groups are busting their butts to improve landowner (public & private) relationships, getting more access to sites, but those who are not trained, experienced or properly equipped & are making these dives are jepardizing this work. Would you keep a site open if unqualified divers were going in, dying & the families suing you for everything you have?
Even though I live several hundred miles away, I try to support them as I am able.

For better or for worse (or really for both a little of the former and a great deal of the latter), lecturing people isn't going to prevent them from coloring outside the lines. You guys are there, most of you got there via a highly regulated and expensive route, so why not ensure your own best interests by pulling up the ladder after you except for others who are willing to do exactly what you've done to consider yourself qualified?

It may have to come to that, but to a degree needs to be kept open or the sport will eventually die. There must be some new blood entering the pool. Thus the crux, most cave divers want others to enjoy what we enjoy (if they want to), but we want them to be safe with it also. Is that really too much to ask?.... Alas for some it seems to be.....

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I don't get called an ass a lot, so Britton doing so gives it special meaning.

I have to add though that I'm bothered that she actually did a traverse from Catfish to Manatee. I didn't do that until I was full cave and when I did it, it was with a three person team and large doubles - enough gas to trudge back against the flow in the event we could not exit at Manatee as planned.

If I'd have known I could just do this as a single tank OW diver with a few single tank OW configuration cavern and cave dives, I'd have saved all the time and money on proper cave training and equipment.

Ok...not really, as it's as much about personal responsibility as anything else, and while I won't oppose someone who really wants to off themselves in a spectacular manner, I do insist they do it in a manner that does not harm others or risk the hard won rights and privileges of others. Anything else is more than a little selfish.

 

[JamesK]

Letting Darwin do his work should not result in site closures or nanny statism. However, recognizing that we live in an imperfect (at least to the more libertarian-minded) system, people who dive the sites they're worried about getting closed/regulated should probably work with the site owners/controllers to get more stringent access rules implemented. For better or for worse (or really for both a little of the former and a great deal of the latter), lecturing people isn't going to prevent them from coloring outside the lines. You guys are there, most of you got there via a highly regulated and expensive route, so why not ensure your own best interests by pulling up the ladder after you except for others who are willing to do exactly what you've done to consider yourself qualified?

DR, while I respect your opinions, I must disagree with you here. Unless you are a local to Florida who is involved in cave diving, or just someone who knows a lot about what happens in cave country, it is hard to understand the politics involved. Man sites have been closed due to deaths of the untrained. Gates have been welded in placed over cave entrances, sites have been dynamited. Land owners who once allowed cave diving, whom never had a death on their land, saw deaths at other spots and closed access. Even cave divers have been their own worst enemies by petitioning to keep sites closed to the pubic. All that happens is more and more caves get closed. Folks are working hard in Wakulla County right now trying to get access to more sites to bring tourist dollars to that area. However due to past events, it is proving very hard. The best thing we can due as cave divers, IMO, is to keep those who do not have the training out of the caves, to mentor each other and those who want to cave dive, to educate the public by showing them that cave diving can in fact be conducted safely.

 

[MSDT476614]

DR, while I respect your opinions, I must disagree with you here. Unless you are a local to Florida who is involved in cave diving, or just someone who knows a lot about what happens in cave country, it is hard to understand the politics involved. Man sites have been closed due to deaths of the untrained. Gates have been welded in placed over cave entrances, sites have been dynamited. Land owners who once allowed cave diving, whom never had a death on their land, saw deaths at other spots and closed access. Even cave divers have been their own worst enemies by petitioning to keep sites closed to the pubic. All that happens is more and more caves get closed. Folks are working hard in Wakulla County right now trying to get access to more sites to bring tourist dollars to that area. However due to past events, it is proving very hard. The best thing we can due as cave divers, IMO, is to keep those who do not have the training out of the caves, to mentor each other and those who want to cave dive, to educate the public by showing them that cave diving can in fact be conducted safely.

Sounds pretty extreme. Sounds like an effort to delay 'darwinism.' Sounds like you're doing what you can though posts by Joe Public who's gone into caves and live to tell show how much control one really has despite best intentions. Not just only caves I guess.

 

[lowviz]

...//... Sounds like you're doing what you can though posts by Joe Public who's gone into caves and live to tell show how much control one really has despite best intentions. Not just only caves I guess.

Could someone decode this for me?

 

[DaleC]

Someone needs a babblefish...

 

[JamesK]

Could someone decode this for me?

my guess is he is saying that reactions from the state/politicians are extreme, and they are only delaying Darwinism and not stopping deaths. also that I am doing what I can to help those who happen to do something unsafe and live. At least that is my take?

 

[TSandM]

No, I think he was saying that, no matter how much you work on landowner relations, and assuring people or the state park system that this can be done safely and responsibly, posts by someone who thinks they don't need training or equipment or experience to dive safely show that your reassurances are hollow. You simply can't stop people from behaving irresponsibly or making mistakes out of wilful ignorance.