Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[kotik]

Are you saying it is better to tell people what is best for them rather than tell them the truth? Sounds like a very dangerous practice to me.

Man, what is your point? Have you seen her video? Read her posts? If there's something you see that indicates anything other than the truth when people tell her that the dive she's doing isn't as safe as she's so sure of, that she needs training and equipment that's conspicuously absent, then I sure wish you'd point it out to me, because I don't see it.

One or two of the giants in the sport took the trouble to study the details of hundreds of dives gone wrong, most of which start out just like the story she tells, and the finding was that the one thing above all others they share in common is diving beyond training. Maybe the study was skewed, undertaken by amateurs. Maybe you have some information that will set this established wisdom on its ear. I'm ready to hear it if so.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

BTW, in the East, REAL men ski [-]Stowe[/-] MRG...

Sorry, had to adjust that

 

[redacted]

Man, what is your point? Have you seen her video? Read her posts? If there's something you see that indicates anything other than the truth when people tell her that the dive she's doing isn't as safe as she's so sure of, that she needs training and equipment that's conspicuously absent, then I sure wish you'd point it out to me, because I don't see it.

One or two of the giants in the sport took the trouble to study the details of hundreds of dives gone wrong, most of which start out just like the story she tells, and the finding was that the one thing above all others they share in common is diving beyond training. Maybe the study was skewed, undertaken by amateurs. Maybe you have some information that will set this established wisdom on its ear. I'm ready to hear it if so.

\
The point is that almost everyone who dives conducts some dives beyond their training as they develop. And it is obviously a reasonably safe practice as long as the steps beyond are small and cautious. Some of these dives are conducted with a qualified instructor in which case the steps are probably larger and faster, but I would not automatically assume they any safer than other means.

I agree that those videos depicted what were probably rather large steps and not as safely as they could have been. My lack of interest in cave diving limits my ability to identify and assess the specific safety shortfalls. But I do believe folks would be better served by more focus on that aspect rather than simply dismissing the practice as unacceptably dangerous because they lack certification training.

 

[Thalassamania]

In the East, real men ski Tuckerman's, on mountaineering skis.

 

[boulderjohn]

Let’s be careful casting stones here. I would like to hear a roll call from those reading this forum who have never, ever pushed a training limit, broken a rule, did a dive without a required piece of equipment, cut school, sped down the highway or threw a snowball at a car, etc. If you have never sinned say “aye”. You won’t hear my voice.

I would like to point out that there are maybe 50 posts in this thread that have tried over and over again to point out that we are not talking about black and white issues in this thread. It is not a simple "exceed training limits" via never exceed training limits debate. Diving to 61 fee wi9th basic OW training is indeed pushing a limit. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a grand leap to something for which you are not qualified. It is not going 3 MPH over the speed limit when you just got your driver's license; we are talking about entering a stock car race when you just got your diver's license.

 

[DaleC]

If that were the debate I don't think there would be much in the way of disagreement from most rational people. I've interpreted some discussion as being less clearly defined though.

Quantum leaps beyond ones training/experience are usually high risk because they lead to uncontrollable events regardless of the divers intentions. One simply doesn't have the tools to cope with circumstances that may arise. They are essentially "trust me" dives.

How one attains that training experience is another matter though and I think part of this debate has been about that.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

We are talking about a grand leap to something for which you are not qualified.

While I agree with the main point that this discussion hasn't been about going beyond formal certifications in minor ways, I was under the impression that part and parcel of that discussion was what equated to being qualified.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

BTW, in the East, REAL men ski Stowe...

Spent many years skiing back east ... to my concern, the real skiers went to Wildcat and Mad River Glen ... and in May hiked up to Tuckerman's Ravine ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added December 15th, 2012 at 03:13 PM ----------

You know, I had some time to think last night and really thought I was gonna come back on here and tell you all that I was glad there were so many caring people in the world and that we took your advice and concerns to heart. But then, I log onto YouTube to find a couple people on their high horse making threats about reporting our videos to the State Parks and bringing sanctions against our instructor....Well, that changed my tune pretty quickly. I hope we never meet up with any of you. James - You are the only one who posted your concerns on YouTube that said you are not the ass you come across as and I have to tell you...you don't seem like an ass at all....The rest do! We'd love to meet up with you sometime.

Why let a handful of jerks on YouTube determine how you respond to people here?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kotik]

While I agree with the main point that this discussion hasn't been about going beyond formal certifications in minor ways, I was under the impression that part and parcel of that discussion was what equated to being qualified.

So, how is the issue resolved? Somewhere there's a line. The basic open water diver making the judgement call that he's probably okay going to 61 feet is on one side of it, Britton's unshakeable conviction that she's qualified to cave dive is on the other I'd say. We could take the laissez faire approach, and say let people decide that for themselves, and die if they overestimate themselves, but then we run into the unpleasant prospect of site closures and government regulations.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

We could take the laissez faire approach, and say let people decide that for themselves, and die if they overestimate themselves, but then we run into the unpleasant prospect of site closures and government regulations.

Letting Darwin do his work should not result in site closures or nanny statism. However, recognizing that we live in an imperfect (at least to the more libertarian-minded) system, people who dive the sites they're worried about getting closed/regulated should probably work with the site owners/controllers to get more stringent access rules implemented. For better or for worse (or really for both a little of the former and a great deal of the latter), lecturing people isn't going to prevent them from coloring outside the lines. You guys are there, most of you got there via a highly regulated and expensive route, so why not ensure your own best interests by pulling up the ladder after you except for others who are willing to do exactly what you've done to consider yourself qualified?