Cutter's Advanced/DEET/Cactus Juice

[Byte Me]

I posted the item below in another thread in this section of the board after trying to do a little research on DEET as I, too, have seen it commented on being very unsafe for reefs. I was unable to come up with anything showing that it was. I'm not trying to pick at a sore here but am really trying to find out if there is any substantiation to the "DEET harms the reef" argument. As I said, I'm all for erring on the side of caution with the reef.

My post from another thread:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by rleslie View Post
PLEASE do NOT use any products with Deet...it hurts the reef!!! Use Cactus Juice. It works just as well."

I've heard this before about DEET and the reef. I know there has been a lot of research done on human affects - don't wear on broken skin, don't use if pregnant, etc. However I've not found much if anything on it's affect on marine life other than a couple studies. These studies have found that it does have an affect on Mosquitofish (how ironic is that !!) Rainbow Trout and the fathead minnow - also affected Mozambique Tilapia. Other studies indicated that DEET also affects some zooplankton; the water flea and Scud. However the studies indicated that affects were mild toxicity or not acutely toxic.

This seems to somewhat contradict the "it hurts the reef" bit. Now, I'm all for NOT dragging stuff into the ocean that shouldn't be there and would much rather err on the side of caution rather than finding out later (like sunscreen) that it's killing the reef or ocean organisms.

What I'm trying to find out is if there is some type of source for comments on DEET and the reef..."

 

[Doc]

Scud?

 

[John_B]

We already know that according to the EPA that Picaridan is listed as a moderatly toxic while deet is listed as only slightly and CJ lists itself as a skin product to avoid epa testing altogether.

What I know for a fact is that the Roatan Marine Park has asked people to refrain from using DEET if at all possible. I hold the Marine Park in higher regard than the run of the mill random internet poster with an axe to grind, and who couldn't be bothered to use a spel chekur.

We also know that Picardin pump sprays "dry" to the skin and that DEET remains oily and appears to be significantly more likely to "wash off" in the water. I can confirm that I'm no-see-um bait when I get out of the water after using DEET, but I'm much less so when I get out of the water after using Picardin (though not perfect). FWIW, I tend to concentrate the spray from mid-calf down, but I've seen people who have to cover themselves head to toe in DEET to fend off the little bastards. I think using as little as possible is also prudent, OTOH I don't have any "studies" to prove that either.

Robin, be prepared to be cyberstalked by these two guys, they followed my SB threads around for close to a week the last time I disagreed with their conclusions concerning DEET.

John_B

 

[RTBDiver]

who couldn't be bothered to use a spel chekur.

We also know that Picardin

Proper spelling is picaridin

As far as the marine park, I have emailed them numerous times about this subject without ever getting a reply. Seems they don't even have the info to share.

 

[John_B]

As far as the marine park, I have emailed them numerous times about this subject without ever getting a reply. Seems they don't even have the info to share.

Or possibly you were so annoying that they chose not to bother?

 

[tridacna]

We also know that Picardin pump sprays "dry" to the skin and that DEET remains oily and appears to be significantly more likely to "wash off" in the water. I can confirm that I'm no-see-um bait when I get out of the water after using DEET, but I'm much less so when I get out of the water after using Picardin (though not perfect). FWIW, I tend to concentrate the spray from mid-calf down, but I've seen people who have to cover themselves head to toe in DEET to fend off the little bastards.
John_B

John, I don't think that either of these guys is attacking you personally over this. They simply want to see a legitimate source for these claims. (The Honduran authorities hold no sway over this either).

Anytime that someone makes a claim, they should be prepared to show evidence to support that claim. There is no need to get emotional and attack the posters because they want to see some supporting documentation. I've been searching for a few months to find something too; I have found nothing. I have asked a good friend, a toxicologist to help me. He too has not found anything that shows DEET to be particulary reef unfriendly. On the contrary, studies have shown DEET to be less toxic than Icaridin.

What is known is that people present different targets to bugs. The amount of of CO2 that you exhale and body temp are much better predictors than how much DEET you perceive that you need. My wife never gets bitten - I'm a mosquito magnet!

 

[Byte Me]

The info I found was from this link - Chemical Toxicity Studies for DEET on All Organism Groups Chemical Toxicity Studies - PAN Pesticides Database - Chemical Toxicity Studies on Aquatic Organisms

Scud?

Ya, Scud. I have no idea either and google seems to think it's this:

However, a bit more research turns up Scud (Gammarus fasciatus):

Scud Illustrated - I think it's the swimsuit issue!!

Looks like something we saw swimming around your 1972 Chevy headlight sized lamp on our night dive!

 

[DocVikingo]

There is no compeling corpus of evidence that DEET does any meaningful harm to reef. And what marine reserve administrations choose to do in regards to protecting their areas isn't always based on scientific.

For those interested in protection against sand fleas and other noisome insects, see this updated and edited version of my "Ask RSD" article on the topic that appeared in Rodale's Scuba Diving.

"Sand fleas and mosquitoes can be a real bother, not to mention that they are sources of some serious tropical diseases such as leishmaniasis and malaria, respectively.

The danger and bother of insects can be substantially reduced by these precautions:

(1) Wear long sleeves and pants, avoiding dark or bright colors, especially at dawn and dusk. Protective clothing such as the "Buzz Off" brand can be useful (Search Results) As an extra precaution, you may treat clothing with permethrin (As in the easy to use Sawyer Products (SawyerŽ® Products - The Leader in Outdoor Protection).

(2) Try to stay indoors at dawn and dusk when many flying insects are most active (although the mosquito that transmits dengue is most active during the daytime), and avoid sandy areas as much as possible at any time of day, especially when there is no breeze. When making reservations, make sure the resort has screened windows;

(3) Wear insect repellent. The best protection against these and other insects arguably is full strength DEET. Some divers like things such as Avon's Skin-So-Soft and Cactus Juice, less toxic products than DEET, by the science largely is behind DEET for long-lasting effectiveness.

Most DEET containing repellents are the 15-30% range of concentration. The testing of various strengths of DEET has shown that after about 30% little additional effectiveness is to be had by upping the strength, and even less after about 50%. As such, there is simply no point in exposing oneself to more potent brews. UltraThon at 32% (Aerosol) appears to be a good product. Used as directed over relatively brief periods of time, say a week, DEET has been shown to pose no significant risk when applied to exposed skin. If you wear lightweight, loose fitting clothes, it generally is safe to use DEET underneath. Doing so with heavy, snug fitting clothes can result in dermatological problems and worse. Be aware that DEET can dissolve synthetics like plastics, rayon and nylon, so it's best to wear natural fibers and keep it off of your gear.

Relatively recently, picaridin-based repellants have been found to be quite effective and much less irritating to the skin and malodorous than DEET. The line of Cutter's Advanced products is an example (United Industries - Cutter Insect Repellent - Cutter Bug Repellent - Mosquito Repellent).

However, based on the published scientific research some of these products contain questionably small amounts of picaridin, e.g., Cutter Advanced Picaridin Repel at 7%, Cutter Advanced Wipes at 5.75%. It is therefore recommended that a product like Cutter Advanced Aerosol with 15% picaridin be used. Some repellants avaiable in foreign venues contain even higher concentrations of the chemical.

(4) Avoid scented toiletries and perfumes;

(5) Upon arrival, treat your room with a bug bomb such as Shelltox or Fish (stay outside while this is being done). Touch up with spray after that as needed.

Precautions such as these can go a long way toward insuring your comfort, although they of course don't guarantee that you will not get bitten. It is therefore wise to take along whatever medications you have found helpful in treating bites, such as Calamine lotion/cream, hydrocortisone lotion/cream and nonsedating oral antihistamines. A number of outdoorspeople swear by AfterBite (Buy After Bite The Itch Eraser for Insect Bites Online at drugstore.com) applied as soon as possible.

Remember that if you have a severe allergic reaction, don't get substantial resolution from self treatment, or the eruption seems to be getting worse or infected, you should seek medical attention in a timely manner."

Regards,

DocVikingo

 

[RTBDiver]

There is no compeling corpus of evidence that DEET does any meaningful harm to reef. And what marine reserve administrations choose to do in regards to protecting their areas isn't always based on scientific.

Why isnt there evidence? Maybe what they choose to do is based on products they can sell with a better profit margin? How is it that so many "know" deet is bad for the reef but there is not one single person that can supply us with studies or factual information on this?
I am not a deet promoter yet I do not follow blindly for no good reason, Of All who keep telling us the deet is hurting the reef, can't at least one of you provide factual evidence to back this up? All I am and have been asking is how do you know this? Also, please let us know what options there are that are proven to be safer for the reef and just as effective. Some talk about picaridin but according to the EPA, Picaridin is Moderately toxic to some species while deet is listed as only slightly toxic.
When I was a kid, like many, I asked a lot of questions and "Because I said so" was a great answer for a father to give a 6 year old at times but I grew out of accepting that type of answer a long time ago.
I wonder really if deet is any worse for the reef than defog, silicone or peeing in your wetsuit

 

[tridacna]

Are there any studies demonstrating the efficacy of Icaridin? I'm curious...