Cutter's Advanced/DEET/Cactus Juice

[Byte Me]

We were at CCV 4/11 - 4/18 and I came back with zero bites from anything. Never even saw a mosquito. I've been taking Vitamin B50 complex as I heard rumor that helps keep the biting critters away so don't know if that helped or not. Did use deet (40%) and cactus juice occasionally - the pump broke on the cactus juice two days in so that ended that use. My wife had three round dots that could have been no see um bites but they never itched.

Heard reports at the airport that the bugs were so bad at either CocoLobo or Bananarama (can't recall) that they pretty much stayed submerged in the pool and even then they were constantly swatting things away from their faces.

We had a better than normal breeze blowing the first couple days on the south side of the island - approx 20mph - but it calmed to normal for the rest of the week. That may have kept them down a bit as well.

 

[John_B]

So Basically
Deet, in concentrations much higher than its registered use have been shown to have slight toxicity to some cold, freshwater fish species but when used as registered DEET not likely to adversely affect terrestrial wildlife or aquatic organisms.

"No single raindrop considers itself responsible for the flood." -- Anonymous

Just one legit study relating to DEET refencing its effects on the reef would be greatly appreciated.

Pray tell, who would fund such a study? Vertellus?

 

[RTBDiver]

But DEET definitely is bad for all of the above.

All I am asking is for someone to please cite a source for this type of information. What about these "environmentally friendly" products that call themselves skin care products just to avoid the extensive and expensive testing that deet and more specifically deet products go through.
I have no interest in arguing about it, I would just like to see any independent legit source, that is in no way affiliated or paid by these natural healthier products be cited for this type of statement.
I have replied on many different forums and also written the Roatan marine park asking for information about this and still have never gotten the information. If it is such an issue then why aren't the studies available or why keep them so secretive?

Pray tell, who would fund such a study? Vertellus?

More money and time has been spent studying deet than any other insect repellant and still nothing to back up this deet killing the reef thing?

 

[John_B]

Mr. TheBlueHouseNewGuy, when was the last time you saw DEET being "used as directed" on Roatan? Since that's the "cover" that's being used here (and elsewhere).

Picardin has proven to be equally effective (in my own personal "studies" LOL!) as 100% DEET and is far less nasty, oily, hard on dive gear. And my biggest objection still stands, DEET overspray from the person next to you isn't good for you (eyes, respiratory system, etc.) which even Vertellus admits. I could care less about Skin So Soft, etc. as its not anything I would ever buy or use.

More money and time has been spent studying deet than any other insect repellant and still nothing to back up this deet killing the reef thing?

I will point out that, whatever extensive testing you claim DEET has undergone, I haven't seen one study that confirms the claims that it is in any way "reef friendly". The only claims I've seen are anecdotal stories (like yours) that claim DEET is supposedly diluted enough IRL that it "can't be a concern"; claims which are equally lacking in proof.

If the people at Roatan Marine Park have serious issues with DEET and there is a viable alternative that is equally effective while being less harmful to people, pets, marine life, and dive gear... Well that's good enough for me.

Its nice that you've chosen to grace us with your presence on SB yesterday and today. Maybe you'll hang around and contribute in more threads than just this one, so we'll know you have more going on than just being Vertellus/DEETs biggest internet cheerleader on dive forums?

 

[RTBDiver]

If other things work well then by all means use them. The EPA say's deet is mildly toxic to freshwater fish such as Rainbow trout where picaridin is listed as moderately toxic. To me this does not suggest either are reef friendly as not much introduced by man is reef friendly but it does suggest that whatever is used with care. I still find it interesting not one single study can show the effects of deet on the reef and Roatan, where cactus juice started along with another local concoction that was marketed there for a while, is the Island that this deet reef thing is pushed hardest.
I respect what the RMP is trying to do but without any factual data I can gve this claim little merrit. If this were such an issue I cant really understand how it has not caught on in first world areas with so many more resources to protect the reef.
You say there is no proof that deet is reef friendly? Thats rediculous, you and others tell us deet is bad for the reef, many suggest it is worse than things like picaridin and other products. Where do you get your information from?
No need to reply with your opinions, Just please, list where you get your fatcs about deet harming the reef.
You say i am a proponent and I am sure it comes off that way yet if anyone can show me the facts I would love to see them. I get a lot of questions about this from friends and family and those just renting my home and if there is any legit study please let me know so i can share that info.

 

[tridacna]

If the people at Roatan Marine Park have serious issues with DEET and there is a viable alternative that is equally effective while being less harmful to people, pets, marine life, and dive gear... Well that's good enough for me.

John, it's OK to question "authority". I seldom buy into the authoritarian approach like you do. "If they say so, then it's true". If so, I would still believe that swimming after eating causes cramps. What is the basis for the "authorities" having serious issues? Did someone sample the water after DEET covered divers finish a dive? Did someone undertake a study to see if marine wildlife or the reef in general is impacted by DEET? Where is the evidence?

The COMPLETE absence of any evidence to suggest that DEET has any impact on the reef suggests to me that this is complete BS and more myth about DEET.

I have yet to see studies showing Icaridin to be safe on the reef or that it even works at all. But wait, the authorities say it is so. Those same authorities also recommend Skin So Soft.

Please do not disparage newcomers. That is insulting. Anyone is allowed to express their views - yes even newbies. Or do you think that they should simply join the chorus of believers until they realize the error of their ways?

 

[John_B]

I normally buck the "authoritarian" approach, but left to believe either RTBNewGuy (who OBTW only posts in *this* thread) and the marine park, I'm going to error on the side of the Roatan Marine Park.

I have replied on many different forums...

I still think RTBNewGuy is a sockpuppet, either another persona for an existing SB or possibly astroturfing for somebody like Vertellus. That's the downside of having SB indexed on Teh Google, the Intarwebz can sometimes bring in people with an agenda outside just scuba diving.

My guess is that we never hear from MrNewGuy again once this thread runs its course...

More money and time has been spent studying deet than any other insect repellant and still nothing to back up this deet killing the reef thing?

See how he says more money and time have been spent studying DEET, "more than any other insect repellent", and yet we are still waiting for his "studies" that definitively show DEET is safe for the reef???

 

[RTBDiver]

and yet we are still waiting for his "studies" that definitively show DEET is safe for the reef???

John, Let me fill you in a little. First off you will never find a statement from me suggesting that deet is definately safe for anything, You sir are the one suggesting you know it is bad, where is your info?
Also, Deet when taken orally by lab rats and other test subjects has been show to be mildly toxic along with being mildly toxic to freshwater fish when introduced in extreme quantities, However, the epa lists deet as only slightly toxic while picaridin gets a moderte rating. Hmmm.
You can find the epa report here http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/0002red.pdf there you will find where the epa has determined that DEET products, labeled and used as specified in the Reregistration Eligibility Decision, will not pose unreasonable risks to humans or the environment.

 

[tridacna]

I have never heard a claim that DEET is reef safe. No one is making that claim here.

Quite the contrary.

When someone (you) makes a claim that DEET harms the reef, you must be prepared to back that up with data. Herein is the problem. You have none. There is no data nor has any study been done to support your claim. Au contraire, many studies have been done on DEET, (Google is your friend here), and none have shown that DEET harms reefs in any way. It does not help to accuse Mr. Blue Lighthouse of not being able to back his claims. He (and I) are not making any claims whatsoever. It was you that made the claim as part of your OP.

Here's the problem: It just "seems" right to make this claim. I mean just "seems" to be a horribly toxic chemical that causes all kind harm? Fact is that it has probably saved more lives from horrible deaths from dengue and malaria than any potential harm to the environment from diver residue wash off. I would posit that residue hair conditioner or residue underarm deodorant could play an even greater role in reef deterioration but I have no data to back that up!

 

[RTBDiver]

one of the big issues with DEET products here hasn't been mentioned, and that is how harmful it is to the oceanlife. The Cactus Juice products are supposed to be much much safer.

I guess the issue remains that all these posts suggesting deet is harmful to the reef have no documentation to support that claim. Even Robin tells us CJ is "supposed" to be better but CJ avoids any testing by not claiming to be a insect repellant so are we SUPPOSED to just accept their claim that they are better?
IMHO it seems that someone would be able to post at least one study to substantiate the claim that deet is worse than the other options but as of now the best that has been done is to try to discredit some of us for being new to the forum without taking into any regard our years of diving and our familiarity with the bay islands. Sorry for being new to the forum but with over ten years of dealing with the Roatan bugs and asking numerous times on many forums for just one independent study confirming the deet issue no one has yet to produce anything legit that deet is any worse than any other option when it comes to protecting the reef.
One must also ask themselves, if all this deet hurting the reef thing had merrit then wouldn't more first world places like Cayman, The Florida Key's, Bahamas and those areas be bashing it as well? How is it that third world Honduras has the best info on this environmental disaster in the making? Could it be that CJ and a few other products were started on this rock? Hmmm Think about it.
As soon as I have anyone provide legitimate info on studies on deet hurting the reef and another product being just as efficient in bug protection for things like Malaria and Dengue as well as tested and proven to be reef friendly I will switch to that product.
Believe me, I am all for conservation yet I refuse to simply accept a retailers claim as any type of fact unless there is some type of data to back it up.
If you are one who has suggested deet hurts the reef more than any of the other options please ask yourself what info you have on this so you can post it here and substantiate your claims. We already know that according to the EPA that Picaridan is listed as a moderatly toxic while deet is listed as only slightly and CJ lists itself as a skin product to avoid epa testing altogether.