Cookies in basic training

[JahJahwarrior]

Ithink it is sad when people feel they need special training to use a cookie. It's a round piece of plastic...what's next? We'll need intro cards with a doubles waiver letter and a "cookie trained" sticker?

Seriously, you are a smart guy, teach yourself how to use it, it's not rocket science. I'd be really surprised if you can't read up on their use and implement them without an instructor to help. If you are really that scared, call your instructor and ask him to answer any questions you have.

 

[KMD]

I was even thinking whether I breached my training limits by making 'a navigational decision' by crossing double arrows. It seemed simple enough to drop arrows to reinforce my exit side.

Don't do this either. Don't drop arrows at opposing arrows. Two opposing arrows are typically (though not always) used to signify the half way point between two entrances. Opposing arrows with one side being a double arrow arre used to signify the half way point between two entrances, but with one drection being "easier"

For example, it could be halfway, but one direction takes you through major restrictions, or significantly deeper or against the flow.

 

[KMD]

Seriously, you are a smart guy, teach yourself how to use it, it's not rocket science. I'd be really surprised if you can't read up on their use and implement them without an instructor to help. If you are really that scared, call your instructor and ask him to answer any questions you have.

Yes 'cause we all know how well people self teaching cave diving works.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Yes 'cause we all know how well people self teaching cave diving works.

There is a difference between teaching yourself to cave dive and teaching yourself how to drop a cookie, and you know it.

It's really simple to read and learn when it is appropriate to drop a cookie vs. an arrow, or to ask an experienced diver.

The confusing part is, every area has their own rules, and within those areas, every group of divers have their own rules, for use of arrows and cookies. For example, in the "popular" caves in Florida, I cannot recall seeing a situation where you had three arrows, with the opposing arrows marking the halfway point and one side being marked with two arrows to indicate an "easier" path. In the "popular" caves in Florida, double arrows pointing the same direction tend to be used to mark jumps. However, other regions and caves will be marked differently, and the people using those caves might use arrows and cookies differently.

So in the end, not only is it easy to learn how to use a cookie on your own, but it is important to learn the "local use," which is something you cannot necessarily learn from any cookie certification class, nor from the internet.

There are very few things simple enough that a diver can learn to do them themselves with such little danger. But, using a cookie should never endanger another diver because it means nothing to them, and thus should not be able to confuse tem the way an arrow could. Divers should be trained on the use of arrows, and they should be able to figure out from that training when it is safe to use a cookie instead. The actual use of cookies will vary based on diver's preferences and local customs.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Note: I'm not cave trained.


In my (UTD) Overhead Protocol training, in addition to lost buddy, we used cookies for lost line drills. Find the line, tie in, drop a cookie on the side of your spool that you went.

I guess that's just a special case of intersecting lines, though.

I am having difficulty visualizing what you are describing. Generally, in a cave, you'd drop an arrow to mark your direction out (in case you get mis oriented while searching) then tie the line from your safety spool or reel into the arrow. If you became directionally confused, a cookie would not point you or a lost teamate in the right direction to get out.

If you are marking intersection lines (a T, etc), you'd mark the exit side of the T or intersection (usually the way you came in) to again eliminate any confusion about which way leads out. It can be surprisiong how different a simple T can look when coming from the other direction, especially when the angles are a little odd.

Cookie use is basically common sense based on a simple rule of using the cookie to mark the exit side of something or as a means of negating an arrow that is for what ever reason not pointing to an exit you want to use.

In a cave you may even decide to drop a cookie on your exit side of a set of double arrows denoting a mid point between exits to verify the proper/preferred exit side, especially in a lights out/silt out situation. It makes more sense than adding another arrow on one side or the other of the double arrows and will not be confused with an arrow denoting an "easier" exit by other teams.

Similarly, if a diver came upon a third arrow added by someone at a jump marked by two arrows in the same direction, it can create confusion as to exactly what it all means - jump? midpoint?, etc. And in a silt out, a diver runs the risk of feeling two of them and forming the wrong conclusion about what it means. A cookie dropped by someone else on the other hand does not confuse the basic navigational picture.

And being mostly common sense, it is not hard to learn on the internet, with due regard to local culture and customs.

 

[rjack321]

MAYBE its time to start considering that some instructors aren't preparing divers adequately for different exit arrows and multiple arrow situations:
<-->>
and
<->
being additional examples.

Everyone talks about how its "all about the instructor not the agency", well here's some actual evidence that its more than just about clicking with a personality.