Considerations around switching to a BP/W

[toby43]

I currently have ~ 40 dives (all in rented jacket BCDs) and am currently considering buying my first BCD. I've taken a liking to the new Scubapro Hydros Pro but all the praise in this forum has made me consider a BP/W as an alternative. I have read loads of threads on this topic but wanted to run my thoughts / remaining questions by you.

General diving profile:
- Currently almost only warm water in 3mm full wetsuit or shorty - all overseas (am a heavy guy, need quite a lot of lead: ~16-18lbs)
- Would like to take up some UK diving in the future (7mm and drysuit)
- No plans for dual tank / sidemount set-ups

Advantages I see for the Hydros Pro
+ No set-up / assembly required
+ More familiar than BP/W
+ Potentially more flexible without modifications (not considering tec diving; can be used in warm water with 3mm and cold water with 7mm / drysuit without swapping parts)
+ Overall likely cheaper than a good BP/W
+ Lighter compared to a BP/W with SS BP
+ Integrated weight pockets allow me to get rid of weight belts (which I rather dislike) on warm water dives

Advantages I see for the BP/W (less in quantity but arguably more important in quality)
+ Less clutter, more streamlined / better trim
+ Huge flexibility with swapping parts

Specifically on the BP/W:

Plate
Given I need quite a bit of lead, even in a 3mm, I understand that a SS BP would be highly preferable in my case and lead to better weight distribution and less required lead on a belt / pockets. Disadvantage obviously the additional weight as currently all my dives are overseas.

Wing
Is there a sweet spot that might work in my case for all 3 scenarios (3mm / 7mm / dry) also considering my relatively heavy weights. I.e. could a 30 lbs work for all that or would I have to look at buying 2 wings for that?

Harness
Hog seems the way to go there. Looks relatively uncomfortable (and harder to get into) to me, but I guess that's a wrong impression I might have there. It looks strange to me that per default there's neither:
- a chest strap (having a hard time imagining that just the shoulder straps properly keep it in place but I guess that's just because I'm used to jacket BCDs with loads of straps) nor
- a tank valve strap (always thought that would be important to keep the tank if it was sliding out, but no problem in reality?)

Weights
There seem to be very different opinions about weight pouches. Some apparently like it and others think nothing should be attached to the BP/W if not absolutely necessary and prefer weight belts.

Available brands at dive shops around London seem to generally be: Apeks, Custom Diver, Dive Rite, Finnsub, Halcyon, Hollis, I.S.T., Mares, Scubapro, WTX, X-Tek, xDeep.

Thanks so much for all the information - am looking forward to your opinions about by (rather uneducated) summary.

Please forget backplate and wing for single tank diving in the UK unless you like having the the piss taken out of you. It's a pose. You can trim fine in pretty much any decent BCD. If you are serious about diving in the UK, you will really need a drysuit and something like a Buddy Commando bcd by AP Diving. If you dont believe me ask the same question on a UK dive site

 

[RyanT]

My only remaining reservation re: BP/W is the flexibility. As I am mostly diving when travelling, I have a huge variety of suits / tanks I am diving with (AL 12L to Steel 15L tanks; 3mm – 7mm wetsuits – soon also drysuit). I can just buy a BCD and use it for all sorts of diving – I will be ok in any sort of exposure suit / with any kind of tank.

I am currently trying to figure out what lift would be required from a wing for different scenarios.

A BP/W will be more flexible than a jacket. I think you'd find that something like a 30 lb wing would provide plenty of lift for a single tank without being overly large or bulky. the beauty of it, is you can always by a smaller or larger wing in the future and still use your same BP & harness.

 

[Imla]

Go with a #30 wing. (I dive in Norway and use #40 for steel doubles)
Also.. a tip... give Richard Walker at Diving Equipment - Wreck and Cave a shout.
UK Based GUE instructor. He'll give you well founded advice regarding equipment.
If you want a good demo, and an opportunity to get help adjusting everything, GUE will have a stand with lots of activities at Eurotek 2016 in Birmingham this weekend. Might be worth the trip. A lot of your mentioned suppliers will have stands, and of course, conference prices might be worthwhile.
EUROTEK.2016 Exhibitors

 

[cool_hardware52]

My only remaining reservation re: BP/W is the flexibility. As I am mostly diving when travelling, I have a huge variety of suits / tanks I am diving with (AL 12L to Steel 15L tanks; 3mm – 7mm wetsuits – soon also drysuit). I can just buy a BCD and use it for all sorts of diving – I will be ok in any sort of exposure suit / with any kind of tank.

I am currently trying to figure out what lift would be required from a wing for different scenarios.

I am assuming the following (please let me know if there’s sth. that doesn’t make sense / my numbers are not right):

A) Lift required to float equipment with full tank

BP/W with SS plate: 6 lbs
Regulator: 2 lbs
AL80 (full): 2 lbs
Total: ~10 lbs

Maximum case would be:
LP100 (full): 7 lbs (increment) -> Total of c.17 lbs

=> Required wing size of ~20 lbs


B) Compensate for maximum change in buoyancy

The tail end there would be a drysuit I assume (if we only look at 3mm / 5mm / 7mm {one-piece}))?
I found ~ 20-24 lbs for the total buoyancy as an indication which – in the very worst case of a total breakdown – would need to be fully compensated.

=> Required wing size of ~25 lbs


My conclusion would therefore be, that a 30 lbs wing would cover everything from AL80 to LP100 and 3mm over 7mm to drysuit. Does this make sense?

You are generally on the right track.
Your numbers for how negative the rig could be are pretty close to what I use every day.

I'd add only that one needs to make sure they are not over weighted. A bigger wing is never the right solution for an over weighted diver. Changing the makeup of the rig is. If the divers basic rig over weights them they need to look at less negative tanks and or less negative plates.

Drysuits can easily exceed 24 lbs, although many are in the high teens to low 20's.

A bigger divers with a high loft undergarment is often over 30 lbs positive.

Test your suit before selecting a wing.

Tobin

 

[mattia_v]

I'll add my comments, coming from a similar background (bought my gear when I had about 50 dives, and went backplate/wing). I'm strictly warm water for now.

- Currently almost only warm water in 3mm full wetsuit or shorty - all overseas (am a heavy guy, need quite a lot of lead: ~16-18lbs)
- Would like to take up some UK diving in the future (7mm and drysuit)
- No plans for dual tank / sidemount set-ups

You will likely be able to drop some of the lead right off the bat, since most BCs are positively bouyant, and even an aluminium plate BP/W setup is negatively bouyant. I went with aluminium because packing weight (particularly for the two of us travelling) was a consideration. Steel would be a better fit and maybe even let me get away with little more than a trim weight or two, but I'm fine with the aluminium for now.

Advantages I see for the Hydros Pro
+ No set-up / assembly required
+ More familiar than BP/W
+ Potentially more flexible without modifications (not considering tec diving; can be used in warm water with 3mm and cold water with 7mm / drysuit without swapping parts)
+ Overall likely cheaper than a good BP/W
+ Lighter compared to a BP/W with SS BP
+ Integrated weight pockets allow me to get rid of weight belts (which I rather dislike) on warm water dives

- Backplate/wing systems require very minimal setup.
- Once you've put it on, they're easy to use. Inflator is standard, single dump valve. Just no shoulder pull, and no double dump valves. And I actually find getting into my Hog harnass system (with crotch strap) is easier than donning (or doffing) a jacket BC, which needs to be readjusted every time and has all these extra buckles and cummerbunds which don't add any comfort at all, for me.
- BP/W systems are plenty flexible, a 17L (35lb) wing should cover pretty much all your options. I have a 15L wing, and has ample latitude for diving in a 3.5mm or 5mm, and should do fine with a 7mm as well. Drysuit depends on the drysuit, I'd guess.
- So get an aluminum plate if travel weight is a consideration.
- You can get integrated weight pockets (and add trim pockets to the plate or cam band)

Advantages I see for the BP/W (less in quantity but arguably more important in quality)
+ Less clutter, more streamlined / better trim
+ Huge flexibility with swapping parts

Yep. I also find them more comfortable, but that will be similar for the Hydros (back inflate; don't like the constricting feeling of a traditional stab jacket).

Given I need quite a bit of lead, even in a 3mm, I understand that a SS BP would be highly preferable in my case and lead to better weight distribution and less required lead on a belt / pockets. Disadvantage obviously the additional weight as currently all my dives are overseas.

Yes, BUT you can also add trim weights (either to the cam bands, and/or to the plate, depending on brand/design of the plate). So if travel weight is the big difference, you can get a simple aluminium plate. That said, it's not that much more weight. And a BP/Wing breaks down nicely and is easy to pack. In my 3.5mm Waterproof W3 wetsuit, with a 10L steel tank and aluminum plate, I'm already massively overweighted in a pool (I'm 1m84 and 90kg currently). I also take almost 2kg less lead than I had with most rental gear, but there are so many factors at play that it's hard to compare (we bought all of our gear in one go).

Is there a sweet spot that might work in my case for all 3 scenarios (3mm / 7mm / dry) also considering my relatively heavy weights. I.e. could a 30 lbs work for all that or would I have to look at buying 2 wings for that?

Probably a 30 to 35lb wing, but the drysuit is the big question. Others have covered this in more detail, and I don't drysuit dive so I'm guessing at best.

Hog seems the way to go there. Looks relatively uncomfortable (and harder to get into) to me, but I guess that's a wrong impression I might have there. It looks strange to me that per default there's neither:
- a chest strap (having a hard time imagining that just the shoulder straps properly keep it in place but I guess that's just because I'm used to jacket BCDs with loads of straps) nor
- a tank valve strap (always thought that would be important to keep the tank if it was sliding out, but no problem in reality?)

- Hog harnass is actually plenty comfortable. The shoulder straps are quite loose, the key is the crotch strap. Chest strap is wholly unnecessary. You have 2 cam bands holding the tank to the plate (or single tank adapter), so the tank valve strap is completely unnecessary.

There seem to be very different opinions about weight pouches. Some apparently like it and others think nothing should be attached to the BP/W if not absolutely necessary and prefer weight belts.

I hate weight belts. My girlfriend hates weight belts. Those nice rubber ones might be better, with molded weights, but I'm not flying weights to where I dive, which is not near where I live. So integrated pockets and a few trim pockets on the BP/W is fine with me. And works for me.

Short version: I really like my BP/W. It's modular, packs down nicely, tough, and feels like it's not there in the water. Would buy again.

I have a Tecline setup (15L wing, alu plate, with integrated weight pockets) which cost me around 500 euros here in The Netherlands, and I'm sure they can ship it to you. Tough, high quality stuff (I think it's a little nicer than my girlfriend's ScubaPro X-Tek wing, actually), and I have no qualms recommending it. No single tank adapter required. Shop I bought it from:

TecDiveShop, de tech webshop van Scuba Center Amsterdam

Send him an e-mail - he's a small brick and mortar operation in Amsterdam, hardcore dive nerd (rebreather at the moment, but open circuit when appropriate) and pretty pragmatic. DTD is also pretty popular around here and has very similar stuff, also nice. And not too pricey. For example:

Backplate/Wing:
Techduikshop.nl
Trim pockets:
Techduikshop.nl (plate)
Techduikshop.nl (webbing/cam bands)
Integrated weight system:
Techduikshop.nl
Techduikshop.nl

 

[rombre]

Thanks a lot, Mattia! It's helpful reading the opinion of someone who was / is in a similar situation.

 

[Centrals]

Please forget backplate and wing for single tank diving in the UK unless you like having the the piss taken out of you. It's a pose. You can trim fine in pretty much any decent BCD. If you are serious about diving in the UK, you will really need a drysuit and something like a Buddy Commando bcd by AP Diving. If you dont believe me ask the same question on a UK dive site

I did it twice in Scapa Flow and didn't hear any comment on my single BP/W set up with dry suit.

 

[mattia_v]

I did it twice in Scapa Flow and didn't hear any comment on my single BP/W set up with dry suit.

Quite. I don't care about the 'tech' side of things. I just like the feel and functionality of the BP/W for single tank diving. Works perfectly well, and falls squarely into the class of 'pretty much any decent BCD'. That said, the AP diving travel wing looks like a nifty option if you prefer a more traditional looking BC (enough lift, light, integrated weight).

 

[Neilwood]

Please forget backplate and wing for single tank diving in the UK unless you like having the the piss taken out of you. It's a pose. You can trim fine in pretty much any decent BCD. If you are serious about diving in the UK, you will really need a drysuit and something like a Buddy Commando bcd by AP Diving. If you dont believe me ask the same question on a UK dive site

Never had anyone comment on my BP&W set up both in the UK and on liveaboard other than to genuine questions about why it is different.

Also I would note that at least one UK dive forum has similar feelings regarding BP&W as to those found here.

 

[rombre]

I'm still doing some calculations on weight required and maximum change in buoyancy.

Would you say the following assumptions (in lbs) are about right?

Buoyancy exposure suits
3mm: +5
5mm: +12
7mm: +18

Buoyancy tanks
AL80: +4 empty, -3 full
LP100 (assume that's the standard 15L used in Europe): -2 empty, -8 full